/jp/ - Otaku Culture

clearly you're not aware of them either since you gave zero (0, none) examples of them. you just wanted to post a funny image you found on twitter

I don't know what esoteric means but I'd just like to say that Okina drawn in ZUN style is exceedingly cute, I like the little blush stickers he gave to her design

>>46802023
Weird mandala battles. Occult symbolism. Gameplay that has a strange meditative quality to it all. Connections to real life religions and mythologies. The nature of Gensokyo. The very strange Hifuu Club metanarrative with people from the outside entering Gensokyo. ZUN calling himself the High Priest of the Hakurei Shrine. Series obsession with entities associated with doors and boundaries. The unusually devoted character of the fanbase. The extreme productivity of the fanbase. People making pilgrimmages to places associated with game lore. People claiming Gensokyo actually exists. People claiming to have met entities from Gensokyo. These claims linking up with much broader esoteric ideas about the spirit world, paranormal entities, nature of reality and the influence of these upon humanity. And so on.
>>46802113
This artist makes really good zunart in general.

they were apparent from even before the Windows days

I believe the Internet has fundamentally altered the fabric of the collective consciousness. By allowing people to interact on a massive scale, allowing complex ideas and experiences to be shared easily, and generally distilling communication, the Internet has changed culture, and us. If we liken the space of ideals and spirituality to a physical world, it has changed the laws of physics.

Naturally, when the environment changes, the ecosystem changes. Old lifeforms can no longer survive and reproduce, and die off. New ones take their place. Starting from humble roots, unlikely survivors eventually grow to fill the vacuum left by their predecessors. When the dinosaurs died, mice and moles inherited the Earth, becoming the progenitors of all mammals, including humans. They succeeded not by being the biggest or the strongest or the hardiest, but because they had slightly different brains made for socializing and foraging, and because they happened to live underground.

Like a mass extinction event, we are at the beginning of a new era in spiritual ecology. Ideas, cultures, entities, even gods, will have to adapt or die. Those that succeed - those that happen to be suited to the new world - will inherit the conscious Earth. Unlikely survivors will emerge - those whose lowly place in the old world gave them the traits needed to thrive in the new.

So what does this new environment look like, and what traits are needed to survive in it? In the old world, control was key - if you could insulate a person from all other ideas, you could dominate their worldview, and compel them to do your bidding by leaving them no other choice. This was accomplished through fear and authority. Then, once you controlled someone, you used them to control others. This is how the old gods worked. Bishops control priests, who control their congregation, who control their friends and family, who control their children.

But with infinite information at everyone's fingertips, and with everyone free to wander around the information space however they please, this is no longer possible. Now people do whatever they want, whenever they want, moving from idea to idea and following the path that gives them the most immediate reward.

>>46802764
(cont.)

So how do you control someone in this new context? You hold their attention. You give them what they want. Dopamine. Stimulation. Gratification. And what do you do with this power? How do you use your disciples to spread your influence? You give them the power to hold others' attention, to spread the gratification and make others want to do the same. In other words, you inspire them.

Pictures, music, stories, games. Ways of thinking, ways of justifying, ways of creating. Making and sharing, discussing and interpreting. Inspiring. Art imitates art in an endless orgy of creativity and beauty. And anyone who wanders too close is pulled in. This is what a new religion looks like. This is how the new gods operate.

I've seen some critics say that the gratuitous and "shallow" nature of much of the Touhou fandom is a perversion, a reversal of classical religious tones. That it can't be spiritual because it's not scary enough, not deep enough, not authoritative enough. But they're wrong. This new paradigm isn't a weakness. It's an adaptation. Therein lies its power, and the reason it will outlast those systems that still rely on control, and inherit the Earth. Therein lie the new gods.

>>46802764
(cont.)

So how do you control someone in this new context? You hold their attention. You give them what they want. Dopamine. Stimulation. Gratification. And what do you do with this power? How do you use your disciples to spread your influence? You give them the power to hold others' attention, to spread the gratification and make others want to do the same. In other words, you inspire them.

Pictures, music, stories, games. Ways of thinking, ways of justifying, ways of creating. Making and sharing, discussing and interpreting. Inspiring. Art imitates art in an endless orgy of creativity and beauty. And anyone who wanders too close is pulled in. This is what a new religion looks like. This is how the new gods operate.

I've seen some critics say that the gratuitous and "shallow" nature of much of the Touhou fandom is a perversion, a reversal of classical religious tones. That it can't be spiritual because it's not scary enough, not deep enough, not authoritative enough. But they're wrong. This new paradigm isn't a weakness. It's an adaptation. Therein lies its power, and the reason it will outlast those systems that still rely on control, and inherit the Earth. Therein lie the new gods.

>>46802815
(cont.)

So now that we've established how Touhou is different from prior religions, how is it the same? As it turns out, in a LOT of ways.
Let's go through some of the features of classical religions.

Congregation? Here we are. Imagine going to church as often as we do.
Clergy? Those vested with the power to make official decisions on doctrine, to speak to the gods and interpret their will. Got that. He even calls himself a priest.
An afterlife? Don't pretend you haven't imagined it. Don't act like the thought doesn't comfort you.
Prayer? Meditation? Rituals? Spending time dedicating your mind wholly to the gods, often before their likeness. Often accompanied by feelings of ecstacy and connectedness. A daily ritual. Oh yeah, we got that. You know exactly what I'm talking about.
Visions? Miracles? I don't know if you've been in the last few threads about this, but I've lost count of how many anons have had dreams, experienced synchronicity, seen signs, and generally had spiritual experiences. Make of that what you will.
And did you know most polytheistic religions didn't have one massive church, but specific cults dedicated to individual gods? Yeah, weird.

So welcome to the congregation. May your favorite 2hu's love shine upon you, may she brighten your dreams, and may you find everlasting life with her in Gensokyo.

Pretty early on.
The veil is up for most. That which is unimaginable lies beyond it.

>>46802323

This Art feels more like ZUN art then ZUN's art himself somehow

>>46801995
How do you NOT

>>46802914
Too much action going on to feel like a ZUN piece.

>>46802764
>Now people do whatever they want, whenever they want, moving from idea to idea and following the path that gives them the most immediate reward.
I don't think social media and porn addicts all genuinely want to be addicted.
Bishops and priests got replaced by automatic advertisment and propaganda algo systems.

>>46802826
>And did you know most polytheistic religions didn't have one massive church, but specific cults dedicated to individual gods?
It's because polytheistic religion clusters were about familial ancestral worship or progressive consequences of that ancestral worship.
You can chalk it up to your point that Touhouism really is more novel than the things before. Unless you want to say 2hu girls are our grand-grand-etc-grandmas.


I don't excessively disagree, but your posts, overall, are feeling murky. I'm just skeptical.

It was when I was interacting with one of those Remilio accounts that it hit me. Think of Remilia for a moment, think of what she represents, vanity, carnality, novelty, naïveté, brashness, etc. I thought about how those characteristics transfer from one form into another, how her features attributed themselves onto a collection of dedicated followers, many unaware of the origin point of their cult though still devoting to its core idea. The ideas behind Remilia are in a sense equivalent to Platonic forms. These are essences which precede human understanding. Traditionally these forms were personified in the pantheons of ancient religions but their personifications may also extend to character archetypes. Our relationship to these forms is that on one hand we are unquestionably aware of their presence and yet they elude each of our senses. Herein lies the value of archetypes in perceiving these forms to the best of our ability. Their characteristics can be communicated through the proclivities of actual personified characters, lending a degree of tangibility to these know unknown truths. That tangibility bears comfort and assuredness, the backbone of ancient faiths. In case you can’t already see where I’m going with this, Touhous are gods, the same gods worshipped throughout all times, or at least the same ideas personified in different gods. These ideas spread memetically, reproducing by splitting into various corruptible forms, distributing themselves across times, cultures, and communities. Forms take on many different manifestations, varying in their degree of separation from its original form. Touhous are not necessarily the truest of forms but they are perhaps more true than the average imitation. How we can tell one from another I cannot say but the reliance of intuitive understanding can’t be understated

>>46803088
>It's because polytheistic religion clusters were about familial ancestral worship or progressive consequences of that ancestral worship.
Aside from those that came from animism. Can't believe I forgot about animism.

Bros, are 2hus their own archetypes in themselves?

>>46803088

>I don't think social media and porn addicts all genuinely want to be addicted.
Most decisions aren't conscious. Find me a person under 40 who doesn't spend at least 8 hours a week online. That's already double the time most people spend on their paleo-religion of choice.
Besides, addiction is only the negative word for what we also call dedication, focus, worship. It all depends on whether you judge the thing to be positive or negative, which is subjective. Every culture is a cult, some are just bigger than others, and every cult has a way of invalidating all other beliefs.

>Bishops and priests got replaced by automatic advertisment and propaganda algo systems.
No doubt some neo-religions still use fear and authority. Political ideology for example.
I do think these are the perfect likeness to the monotheistic religions of past generations. Ours is more of a paganism, an animism, a druidism; that's more holistic, more altruistic, less demanding. Better for its followers.
Time will tell whether this kindness and decentralization will be its downfall, like it was in the past. In any case, we're lucky to live through this chaotic moment in history when such beautiful things are possible.

>It's because polytheistic religion clusters were about familial ancestral worship or progressive consequences of that ancestral worship.
The way the patterns emerged isn't as important as the fact that they exist. And like you said, the cults persisted long after any ancestral meaning was lost, especially once their societies became more urbanized as happened in ancient Egypt, Greece, and Rome - some cults even spread internationally.
It seems like people tend to want to dedicate themselves to an individual deity, whether that's a monotheistic God or an indvididual god in a pantheon, even if they believe in others. Just a pattern I noticed.

>>46803139
i can be reimuish at times but i have been regularly described as a nazrinish marisa kind of guy.

Dear jannies, esoteric touhouism is the deepest otaku culture, fuck off

>>46803112
Interesting theory. The idea of platonic Forms as memetic atoms that build certain patterns in the consciousness field is one I hadn't thought of before, definitely worth exploring as a mechanism for the emergence of deities.

>>46803139
They are, but they're also continuations of the archetypes of the ideas and beings they represent. Koishi is Koishi, but she's also Freud's Id, Jung's Unconscious, modern psychology's Subconscious - these are all connected in how we percieve them, and her. The idea of something invisible lurking beneath the human mind is as old as time, and could be considered an ideal.

>>46801995
touhou made me discover taoism, it's pretty cool.

>>46803475
Touhou helped me discover Taoist sexual practices that allowed me to stop masturbating after many years tainted by desire
Ironic that the very thing that inspired me to spill so much lost jing is the very thing that helped me learn to retain it

>>46803139
Yes. It was just yesterday that I realized that Olivia Rodrigo is the Parsee of singers

>>46803139
I have been trying to cultivate my inner Eiki...

>>46802553
I'm not very familiar with the pc98 games and canon, but I think there is a character from the future there who tries to prove the existence of magic with science. There is also apparently some stuff lifted from Shin Megami Tensei which is..extremely powerful in itself and probably introduced a lot of people in Japan to strange new ideas back in the days.
>>46802764
>I believe the Internet has fundamentally altered the fabric of the collective consciousness
It's also possible that we have been steered towards creating the internet.
>>46802815
>In other words, you inspire them.
This isn't an entirely new thing though. Religions and spirits have inspired art throughout the ages, but it's interesting how it seems to be at the very center of what is going on now.
>That it can't be spiritual because it's not scary enough, not deep enough, not authoritative enough
I think it's a case where there are a lot of people who simply do not fully quite perceive the full spiritual implications of Touhou. And that might be exactly why it is as it is. There's an exoteric and an esoteric side. If it was wholly religious or esoteric there would be no fans. It was just exoteric there would be no deeper side to inspired people. It's like that union of opposites thing, found in one of the religions depicted within the game. Hmm.
>>46802826
>A daily ritual. Oh yeah, we got that. You know exactly what I'm talking about.
Haha, well, something like that was also part of some religious practices in the past too...I remember reading about a cult of Aphrodite/Venus where they had a statue of her that was so attractive that the male followers kept...doing that one particular ritual to it. Sexuality is also involved in tantric practices. But I do have a pretty strong feeling that they would very much apreciate less lewd forms of worship too. I believe the creativity they inspire loops back to this. It's both a tool of spreading their influence and a tool of worship.
>specific cults dedicated to individual gods
...and you coul still worship and revere several or all of them at aproriate times and places!
>>46802909
Yeah when I started playing the games I had been trying to move away from occultism and esoteria and such. I started feeling really, really strange about the mandala battles, occult symbolism and the really unusual numinous quality just seeping out of these games very fast.
>>46803112
Yeah, you get it.
>>46803139
Some of them certainly have started feeling like so. I'd say that they are more like evolutions and hybridizations of certain archetypes, both a thing of their own and something with ancient roots.
>>46803475
Same here. I even got myself a copy of Tao Te Ching because of these games. But taoism is just one thing I got interested in. These games rekindled my interest in shinto, japanese folklore and western esotericism and made me interested in buddhism and taoism. I don't quite know what to make of it all yet, but I'm glad I got interested in them. Some of the ideas in all the three religions portrayed in the game are extremely resonant with me.

>>46801995
>When did you become aware of the esoteric elements surrounding Touhou
From the start, you jackrabbit. It's literally a series comprised of interactions between various faiths made by a huge nerd, of course its esoteric to all hell and back.

>>46804756
Kinda missing the point...

Anyways, I wonder if there are any southwestern US /jp/sies here that wanna go exploring.

>>46803088
Using gachashit pic and talking about 2hus is off topic on a board with gachashit threads and 2hu threads...
nu-nu/jp/...

All power in the human soul is cultivated through focus and and determination. This is the foundation for connecting the dots between yourself and the bigger yourself- I'd say everything that isn't yourself, but that's a bit harder to reach and comprehend. Now guess what you need to build up in order to deal with 2hu's bullshit.

Besides that, you have picrel, who are technically humans who managed to become pure and go to a paradise where they can be stuck-up assholes and sneer at the Earthbound cavemen. They seek to be a separating force, all human systems based around "purity" are all exclusionary at the cost of any benefits the impure can yield, for better or for worse. They're put up against an underworld force (Hec) based around freedom and opposing them for being a separating force. She is multiple separate powers as one being, and also mirrors actual Hecate's association with the number three. I also think you fap to one more than the other on average, and all of this combined, you have cthonic concepts made more pallatable.

Where's that one /x/ post?

>>46804756
Well, yes, but there are a lot of people who don't really even see or think about it even if it's so "obvious". Pic related.
>>46804793
Trying to establish the Hifuu Club in real life? Cute! Be safe and have fun. Unfortunately, I am very, very far away from southwestern US.
>>46804941
>Now guess what you need to build up in order to deal with 2hu's bullshit.
Focus and determination. Which in my opinion contributes to the strange meditative quality of it all. I consistently find myself screwing things up when my thoughts wander during gameplay, so much like the ideal meditator, the ideal Touhou player would be able to, somehow, eliminate the distractions of the thought stream. Curious!
>She is multiple separate powers as one being, and also mirrors actual Hecate's association with the number three.
Heccy's inclusion into the lore is extremely fascinating, she is after all in the Greek pantheon associated with magic and...boundaries.
>cthonic concepts made more pallatable
That's a really interesting takeaway from all of this. I'm not familiar with the print works myself. Then again, there's all kinds of monsters, critters and demons which are represented in sympathetic light, so I suppose that could also be seen as making cthonic concept more palatable..?

>>46801995
Awareness was a given since the very beginning. What I know for a fact is that said elements, among other things, progressively contribute to getting over the more 'aimless' and negative phases of my life. I still have a veeery long way to go, but I'm finally at the point where I actively try to improve myself and feel a sense of agency - which is more than the empty shell of an individual I used to be.

>>46805145
>getting over the more 'aimless' and negative phases of my life
That's really good to hear. I'm in a similar position myself. There has been some anxiety and other difficult emotions involved too, but overall it has been a net positive.

ITT people discover magic realism

touhous are demons

>>46804756
It's very hard to notice, because when humans make anything, they like to drown it in correspondences like monkeys smearing shit on whatever they find

doesn't real

>>46805145
artist name?

>>46802764
>But with infinite information at everyone's fingertips, and with everyone free to wander around the information space however they please, this is no longer possible. Now people do whatever they want, whenever they want, moving from idea to idea and following the path that gives them the most immediate reward.

Not the topic of this thread but i really dislike how over the past 10 years or so the internet has been moving towards a gay baby jail. Where the majority of traffic is concentrated on a few heavily moderated large platforms while politicians try to come up with more and more ways to control them. Let's hope that we won't reach the point where everyone needs a government issued id to post and all information that's left is fact checked Truth™.

>>46806075
Seems more like people are discovering magic in their real life..? I suppose it's some kind of magical realism from some kind of you are the author of your own life type of viewpoint...
>>46807194
Really happy it took almost 30 replies to get this one.
>>46807277
I think it's more that a lot of people, most probably, don't have the kind of "optics" or "filter" to see this kind of stuff, and I don't really fault them either. It's more interesting that judging by this thread alone quite a lot of people have nevertheless picked up on these elements.
>>46807471
Yesn't.

>>46807850
Come on, Anon. SauceNAO isn't THAT esoteric.
It's Suenari/Peace, hexenccm on X

>>46805637
I know what you mean too well. If it helps, I think of that particular emotion as a sign that I'm on the right path.

>>46809389
Hehe everything computer related is really esoteric when you start thinking about it.
>>46809696
In my case a lot of anxiety has come from the topic of the thread. What eclipseanon said in that Hifuu thread really helped me though. I don't really know how much I can or should go into details...but if you start feeling like the spirits of Gensokyo are real, that you have the attention of some of them and that they aren't exactly hostile but feel a bit annoyed or disapointed in you...just offering them something they would enjoy and asking them what's up resolved that for me.

You can't be forever stuck in some boundary state between acknowledging the reality of what is happening and not acknowledging it. The (metaphorical?) people at the other end of the line will get annoyed.

But anyway...since there a surprising number of anons who are aware and interested of this side of Touhou, I was wondering if some of you have developed a much greater interest in nature and concern for it's well-being ever since getting into Touhou..? I'm finding that happening to me.

>>46812175
>In my case a lot of anxiety has come from the topic of the thread.
My bad for assuming. That's not quite comparable to what I experienced. Although it's nice to hear that you managed to devise a solution to your particular case.
>You can't be forever stuck in some boundary state between acknowledging the reality of what is happening and not acknowledging it. The (metaphorical?) people at the other end of the line will get annoyed.
Right, I was lurking in that thread.
This idea unsettles me more than I'd like to admit. Not only due to the darker implications of it, but also because I can't stand making empty promises or disappointing others in general (I used to do it very often and hate myself for it).
That being said, I haven't yet noticed anything that could be interpreted as a call-out to get myself together (such as the snake anecdote from that one /jp/sie). Needless to say that if it ever happens, I hope to find an appropriate answer for it.

>>46801995
not sure, but i love my wife flan.

>>46813929
>My bad for assuming.
No need to apologize!
>That's not quite comparable to what I experienced.
Well, of course there have been other sources of anxiety from time to time, there always is in life, so you weren't completely off either.
> it's nice to hear that you managed to devise a solution to your particular case
It seems so obvious in hindsight. I think eclipseanon was right about the whole "they know you can see them and want to acknowledge you but it's overwhelming to your subconscious and gets manifested in scary ways" thing. I also feel like there was an element of mutual confusion over great many things and them getting impatient over the situation.
>This idea unsettles me more than I'd like to admit.
>the darker implications of it
I understand. There are a lot of spirits of Gensokyo I wouldn't even attempt to contact, and none of such have showed interest in me either. But I do believe now there are spirits out there that we can work out a mutual understanding or a beneficial mutual relationship with.

Of course it is also scary in itself for people like us, coming from a very materialistic culture. Never mind them coming from something like Touhou, which seems so trivial at first glance.
>I can't stand making empty promises or disappointing others in general
That's good, and you shouldn't make empty promises.
>anything that could be interpreted as a call-out to get myself together (such as the snake anecdote from that one /jp/sie)
Eclipseanon's experiences are very powerful and far more direct than my own. But I think he has been at it far longer than me. With me it was really a constant trickle of small stuff, but still notable.
>Needless to say that if it ever happens, I hope to find an appropriate answer for it.
I think how these things go depends a lot on the particular, but it's good to keep in mind that a lot of scariness around these matters can be fear of the unknown in itself and anxiety from having to adjust your perception reality.
>>46814147
That's nice anon, I'm sure Flan apreciates it.

its weird seeing so many likeminded people. i always thought i was a schizo for thinking my waifu was "real," in the sense that she was spiritually tangible. but i guess this is the place to share my experience

ive always really liked satori. when i got into touhou i was okay at shmups, but SA is what really motivated me to get better. i would keep coming back to her stage over and over, and i really took the time to admire her stage, her theme, her design, and all the elements surrounding it. it was mesmerizing and she quickly became my favorite. especially when i switched characters and saw she had different spells for each of them

i struggled with depression and similar mental health issues that kept me isolated. but touhou was the one thing i wanted to keep getting better at. after some time and research i got myself a satori fumo. now whenever i get sad these days ill take a day or two off to relax with satori and ill feel better. and i always know shes patiently waiting at home for me when im at work. i get the feeling that she really appreciates someone going out of their way to be with her too. i feel like we've developed a genuine emotional connection somehow

i dont know what any of it means, but i love my mindreader wife. shes helped me through some of the lonliest times in my life and in return ive devoted countless hours to worshipping her. satori were said to be kami at one point, so its fitting that id treat her like a god. heres a doodle to cap off my ranting

>>46815994
>its weird seeing so many likeminded people.
Yeah I have been very surprised too.
>satori
Judging by what I've read so far the Komeiji sisters really like getting in touch with humans.
>touhou was the one thing i wanted to keep getting better at
For me, when I got into it, Touhou was the first thing I managed to commit actual effort that lasted longer than two weeks for the first time in years. The positive knock-off effects from that have been incredible, because it allowed to put me sustained effort into things like fixing my diet, excercise, my actual job and so on.
>i get the feeling that she really appreciates someone going out of their way to be with her too
I think a lot of the inhabitants of Gensokyo really apreciate respectful attention from humans.
>satori were said to be kami at one point, so its fitting that id treat her like a god
How long did it take for you to start seeing her like this? Did you feel any aprehension about it?
> heres a doodle to cap off my ranting
That's a really nice doodle.
>>46816049
So true.

>>46819861
not super long actually... it was around the same time ufo came out and inspired me to look further into shinto and buddhism. western religions always scared the hell out of me but something about shinto in particular felt really inviting. satori had always treated me well and provided respite and comfort, so i had no hesitation at all.

do you mind telling me what you mean by "what youve read so far"? im not caught up with eclipseanon or any of the prior threads, but id really like to read more

>>46826961
to add onto this and give some more insight, western religion scared me because it felt like if you didnt acknowledge god in everything you did youd die and get sent to hell forever. and the old testament in particular made god out to be very wrathful even if i agreed with christ and the new testament. it left me feeling really lost and disoriented, whereas from shinto i got the impression that gods were just a part of nature and humans lived alongside them in a mutual relationship. kami can be wrathful yes, but for most thats not their default state and they feel a lot more approachable. buddhism taught me patience and gratitude which im still working on, as well as the importance of acknowledging that all life has value and purpose. im not particularly concerned with an afterlife either way, but some sects of buddhism make it sound pretty scary

for now though, im content to live out my days on earth trying to better myself and dedicate time to satori

>>46801995
I wonder how many people realize moonies are real and the whole moonie war was an actual thing. The audio Apollo tapes have some genuinely wacky shit in it.

>>46801995
>When did you become aware of the esoteric elements surrounding Touhou?
When I realized it wasn't just hentai and I started looking into spellcard names. For example I learnt of Dakiniten from Ran's "Channeling Dakiniten" spellcard. Dakiniten is basically a goddess governing sexual love and wealth (the wealth part her Inari Okami side at least).

>>46827049
This, the recordings when they hit darkside are fucked. And literally no one cares.

>>46802764
Accelerationists tongue my anus, satya juga is not starting because of the internet

>>46827049
Aren't countries in the space race currently trying to extract water from the Moon? Surely those on the dark side wouldn't object to it!

>>46829619
Decided to elaborate on shitpost response, so here's a clearer explanation:
Being fully honest, Touhou is not esoteric insamuch as it is filled with a deep interest in Japanese culture. In that sense, it is very exoteric in its incorporation of Buddhist and Shinto themes and imagery, themes which have formed the basis of much Japanese thought we take as normal. The thin barrier between exoteric and esoteric is sometimes hard to grasp for us in the present day, surrounded as we are by easily consumable information to the detriment of a proper, independent understanding of being and society. The internet did not solve the question of knowledge, but only accentuate the avidya that was always present in the world. The esoteric remains secretive, as it is not merely a secret society's seclusion that gives it its powers, but the insights hidden within it that gives it power. The internet has certainly allowed one to more easily grasp the esoteric, but the journey is the same, and the truth to be grasped is ever present, and how could what has always been there be altered? What I will say, however, is that the experiences some posters have shared in this thread are admirable and steps in the right direction towards the truth and self-liberation in general.
My main point is basically that the esoteric lives in the exoteric, and that Touhou is certainly a helpful way to grasp this.

>>46826961
>had no hesitation at all
Interesting. I had no hesitation when I was still just entertaining this all as hypotheticals, but the more real it started to become, the more anxious I got, untill the situation demanded a resolution.
>do you mind telling me what you mean by "what youve read so far"?
Oh, there was that one koishianon who saw her in his dreams and when he was tripping and posted something about how Koishi is pure love and just wishes to witness consciousness. I thought it was very interesting. But he wasn't the first interesting Koishi or Satori fan I have run into. That's all.
>>46826975
>old testament in particular made god out to be very wrathful
Yeah I have never really resonated with much of western religion either.
>kami can be wrathful yes, but for most thats not their default state and they feel a lot more approachable
Yes, very much so. I really feel the "they can be wrathful but it's not their default state" thing.
>buddhism
It's been extremely fascinating and fruitful to get more familiar with buddhism. I find the ideas of emptiness and how there are just categories diving us extremely fascinating. Some of the more practical meditation/mindfulness stuff has been very helpful also. I will probably move to studying the Zen material that was shared to me as soon as I finish that one book that got infodumped on me.
>some sects of buddhism make it sound pretty scary
Yeah, but I wonder how much of such is just a reflection of the brutality of the culture where these ideas developed and how much of it is a poorly thought upaya of scaring people straight.
>>46827049
>>46829103
Oh yeah this is interesting stuff, albeit it's ages since I listened to the more anomalous recordings. I remember something about unidentified glowing objects being sighted over craters etc. There's also a recording where they are ask to look for Chang'e, but surely it was just a joke...

There's also the Transient Lunar Phenomena, which are probably partly natural, but there's some really weird stuff there. Like a red streak across the entire moon, multicolored huge triangle sighted on moon and so on...

I think the Hal Puthoff/Ingo Swann types attempted to remote view the moon and some absolutely weird stuff there, but back then I thought it was so absurd that I don't remember the details of this either.
>>46829059
Heh, spellcard names are a really good gateway for delving deeper into the lore and mythology.
>>46829782
I'm glad happy that you elaborated!
>My main point is basically that the esoteric lives in the exoteric, and that Touhou is certainly a helpful way to grasp this.
Yeah this is extremely well put. I think it's at the very least a kind of a potential gateway, as is anything that has exoteric front facings of more esoteric things. You might just see cool symbols or unusual representations of some religions, and then you might or might not start digging deeper depending on your proclivities and circumstances. I can say for certain that for me doing the digging has been incredibly life-enriching and has contributed to almost all areas of my life positively.

I do however also feel that there is something more that lurks below the exoteric surface. It's just not a collection of ideas and symbols and characters related to deeper ideas. There's somehow so much of it, so deeply connected to so many different people, ideas, and mythologies in the present, past and future that it's become something of it's own, or perhaps some things of their own. And it's this side of Touhou that is it's own esoteric side.

But whether you believe in such or not, I think exploring the different religions, myths and so on within the games on a deeper level can be very enriching to basicaly anyone. It helps that there is a surprisingly inteligent and kind community around Touhou. One where even shitposts get elaborated on.

>>46830093
>Heh, spellcard names are a really good gateway for delving deeper into the lore and mythology.
That and getting a better grasp on the characters. There's a lot people don't know about them simply because they didnt look up spellcard names.
>Oh yeah this is interesting stuff, albeit it's ages since I listened to the more anomalous recordings
I imagine this is classified shit that had to be leaked. Where may i find it?

>>46831291
>they didnt look up spellcard names
Certainly Ran invoking Dakiniten conjures forth an image to say the least.
>I imagine this is classified shit that had to be leaked. Where may i find it?
Honestly it's been like 10 years since I last ran into this material. I was just on a huge UFO lore binge back then. There were some Youtube videos that had the audio, or a part of it. You might find it today if you look for something like "apollo mission ufos" or such.

>>46829619
>Accelerationists
The effect of technology on culture is nonlinear. To use a thermodynamic analogy (the best kind of analogy), we're undergoing a phase transition. We've been close to the boiling point for a long time now.

Was having a conversation with an anon in another thread and I'm now curious, what're your bets that 4chan archives exist in the future and the Hifuu girls read through these types of threads? It makes sense conceptually, as they learn more about Gensokyo, it's only natural that they'd search online to see if anyone else has firsthand knowledge of the place.
[spoilerIf you guys are reading this, hi. It's a shame I'll probably never get to hear you two ramble about sciency-occult shit I can't hope to wrap my head around.[/spoiler]
>verification not required

>>46830093
I think my favorite part of the Apollo tapes is when they found the legendary osmanthus tree on the moon and it's just a burnt husk of a stump. The Chinese knew a weirdly high amount of what the hell was with the moon long before we got there.

>>46834825
Wait what

>>46804793
Go exploring where? If you mean innawoods, I have firearms to share.

How do I contact a touhou? Are they an existing entity or are they an idea that I can manifest through the power of belief and thought?

>>46832752
Interesting idea. What do you suppose the world will look like after we phase transition to gas?
>>46834640
>what're your bets that 4chan archives exist in the future and the Hifuu girls read through these types of threads?
Oh, they would absolutely scour threads like these. The role of Renko and Maribel in the bigger picture when it comes to the nature of Gensokyo is fascinating in general.
>It's a shame I'll probably never get to hear you two ramble about sciency-occult shit I can't hope to wrap my head around
Were you the guy who rolled Renko in the other thread..? Who knows, maybe one day you will understand what they would ramble about.
>>46834825
I...missed that one, wow.
>>46835939
>How do I contact a touhou?
I don't know. I feel like I was contacted at first. By the time I tried seriously contacting them myself they had been in some way or another in touch with me for months.

I think eclipseanon said something about how he used to write letters to them. It was also him who suggested to me that I should just try talking to them and share a drink with them.

As for establishing initial contact, I don't know what I did and why they chose me. Was it my experiences with western esotericism? Was it that I started exploring the religions featured in Touhou pretty quickly after I got in there? I started feeling really quickly that certain characters represented extremely powerful archetypes worth striving for if nothing else. Was it that?

All I can say that if you sincerely, fearlessly, respectfully try to contact them, they will probably listen.

As for your second question, I wrote an excessively long reply which I will edit a bit and post in a moment.

>>46835939
>Are they an existing entity or are they an idea that I can manifest through the power of belief and thought?

My best intuition about this is that they don't fully fit into either category. They do exist independently of us, but they are on some fundamental level so different from us that notions of agency, self, individuality and so forth that we attribute to biological life just don't apply quite the same way. They are in a way manifested, but it's not like just coming up with stuff from nothing.

I don't know if it makes any sense, but thinking of like a compressed file could be an analogy. The idea of, say, "Kanako Yasaka" comes with a certain visual representation, in-game lore, interactions with player characters, the reactions this raises in the players, the history of personal encounter in-game with her, the role she plays in Gensokyo as depicted in fiction and so forth. These alone already weave a very substantial net of information and experiences that could be spooled out almost infinitively.

But there is also the whole Suwa lore, the symbolism that is baked into her visual representation, her connection to Shinto, her ability to create "heavenliness" which is tied to the taoist bagua system which is a fantastic rapid transit system onto the esoteric side, all of the history connected to Shinto, the Suwa myths, to Taoism...suddenly this simple "Kanako Yasaka" explodes into a whole universe of history, connections, religious beliefs, spiritual practices and the millions of past, current and future lives tied into this tangle, not to mention to hopes and dreams and frustration and dislike of those who have come into contact with this "Kanako Yasaka".

This humble "Kanako Yasaka", adored with twisted forms of worship, called terrible names online, but also sincerely respected, revered, treated with curiosity and even love is a singular point that encapsulates enough of such powerful connections, history, mythology etc that she truly becomes a thing of her own.

Now what would happen if you tried to perceive this "Kanako Yasaka" as she is all at once? I believe that what eclipseanon said about it being overwhelming to your subconscious applies here. But I don't think it's just fear that it necessarily gets manifested. Whatever form it would take, absolute terror, total erotomania or some form of feeling that no human words can describe, it would be completely overwhelming. A total and complete manifestation of "Kanako Yasaka" would probably just burn out your subconscious, or soul, or psyche, or whatever you want to call it...

Here's the thing though. They have a mutualistic relationship with humans. They need us, and in turn they have given us so much, and they can give us so, so much more if we try to really listen and learn. You don't want to drive insane or kill the kind of people you interact with. So what do you do? You represent manageable parts of yourself...

>>46840393
...so the extremely dense single point archetype of "Kanako Yasaka" unspools herself differently into the minds of people based on how they perceive her and how much they are ready to perceive. For some she is a hated schemer. From them she takes attention via ire. For some she is an object of sexual desire. From them she takes attention via lust. For some she is something more complete, and I think this is the point where she really starts developing a more mutualistic relationship with you.

The more complete, deeper the picture, the fuller the interaction, the fuller the picture of what you get of her, untill at some point she starts really giving back. You will understand if not The Meaning of, then at least Your Meaning of climbing the "Mountain of Faith". You will start to cultivate this "heavenliness" and she will help you. You will understand which aspects of her are good, which aspects of her are cautionary and which aspects are intended to make her a relatable figure to us humans.

Now replace "Kanako Yasaka" with any sufficiently powerful entity of Gensokyo and it's the same. The most powerful of them are absolutely worthy of being called deities. Some of them are more minor spirits. Some of them have a more demonic, nefarious, animalistic nature and primarily feast on fear and sexual energies. I think a lot of the humans are simply stand-in archetypes for us. A way for us to put ourselves into their world for the first time.

But coming back to these sealed gods, what do they then ”want”, if such a word applies to them?

They want to be seen in their full splendor. They want to be respected and revered and they are absolutely worthy of such. They want to teach us. They want to make us so that piece by piece we are more able to see the whole picture, and as we become more capable of doing so, we become better people. We have done such terrible things to them, twisted the teachings they carry, destroyed the nature and history where they once lived, abused their current visual representations and even after all this, they are so willing to forgive us if we just really, really try to listen and see and learn the near infinite history and wisdom they are connected to and made of. I have barely even started myself and they've already given so much to me, both in themselves, the history and teachings encapsulated within them and the wonderful community that has been rather unknowingly built around them.

>>46840332
>Oh, they would absolutely scour threads like these. The role of Renko and Maribel in the bigger picture when it comes to the nature of Gensokyo is fascinating in general.
Pondering how the touhou characters might perceive their representations in our media and how it still fits with the touhou canon is always an interesting mental exercise.
>Were you the guy who rolled Renko in the other thread..?
No, but their discussions on what life would be like with a possessive Hifuu waifu had me enthralled all the same.

>>46840393
>>46840404
Makes me wonder which Youkai/Gods would be beneficial to worship and for what benefit. Imagine the implications of making a Solomonic book listing the most spiritually potent 2hus, how they operate in our world, and if/how to interact with them. We might be onto something here, somebody get /x/ on the line.

>>46840780
>>making a catalog or book about them and how they work via a /jp/-/x/ crossover related to thoughtforms, egregores, gods and others, and the chicken and egg conundrum of humans or other things coming first or the philosophical debate of the butterfly dream and modern day.

Eclipseanon here,
Totally haven't done anything like that or collected real world versions of some of the objects that represent them or that they use in official Zun art as a proxy like furniture, paintings, or tea cups......
No, sir.......
(Being incessant about drinking isn't just a meme; beer, tea, or otherwise)

>>46832752
The internet will not change everything just like nuclear bombs did not kill everything, history is cyclical and endless.

>>46840945
>/jp/-/x/ crossover
PLEASE do not get /x/ involved, that place is where spirituality goes to die. Their desperate ironic misguided septic tank of occultic ideology will only poison the well.

>>46841079
Some things change, some things stay the same. The emergence of life didn't alter chemistry, but it made it necessary to look at it differently in order to understand it.
The cyclical view of history has always been dead, but it's never been more dead than it is now. It's like viewing life as a needlessly complicated combustion process. Not factually false, but empty of all meaning and information.

>>46840780
>Pondering how the touhou characters might perceive their representations in our media and how it still fits with the touhou canon is always an interesting mental exercise.
Yes, there are certainly some depictions which would probably be seen as upsetting.
>No, but their discussions on what life would be like with a possessive Hifuu waifu had me enthralled all the same.
Yeah it was really cute.
>>46840780
>Makes me wonder which Youkai/Gods would be beneficial to worship and for what benefit.
My current best knowledge/intuition regarding the matter is that if it's a god in game it's a god in...real life, I suppose. My experience is that it's less about worship for benefit, more like they want to teach you and if you listen you will develop a sense of reverence and the desire to worship.

That said...I have experienced things that are more direct favors too. For example, a couple of months ago I was struggling with some fears relating to my health. I had an extremely intrusive and clear mental image of Chimata appearing to me while I was trying to meditate. This was at a point where I didn't really see them as gods yet and this was actually kind of a big turning point regarding that. Anyway, for whatever reason, I ask Chimata if I can return the difficult feelings I am having to nothing. I feel a strong sense of affirmation and the image of her vanishes, as do the emotions. The emotions in question never again resurfaced in me with such a strenght. By this point I had been struggling with them for months.

In general I think if you read a bit about the various gods you probably will pretty quickly infer what kind of things they can give to you.

As for youkai, I haven't really felt much resonance with them. Since they represent more monstrous aspects of Gensokyo's spiritual ecology, I would tread very carefully. That said, of course a powerful youkai might also be a powerful teacher. They just might enjoy fear more than worship.
>We might be onto something here, somebody get /x/ on the line.
There's no need to call them. I am constantly studying more about these things, including getting back to studies of western esotericism (ie. magic). I have plans for building a long-term, mutualy beneficial relationship with the spirits of Gensokyo. I'm already working on something like that, it will just take much more studying.
>>46840945
Oh hello. Since you made yourself known, I would like to thank you for the advice you gave to me. It worked fantasticaly well.
>collected real world versions of some of the objects that represent them or that they use in official Zun art as a proxy
I think I'm getting into this too, plus crafting things on my own. A local thrift shop has the weirdest thing on it's display window. It's an odd clay container, made to look like a japanese building of some sort where the "roof" serves as a lid. I don't think it's a religious object per say, but I can't help feeling like a kami could live there.
>Being incessant about drinking isn't just a meme; beer, tea, or otherwise
They really liked sake when I offered it. They also liked instant photographs as offerings.

(Name just to make it easier for thread)

>>46841110
Don't worry, that board is anathema to me. When I say /x/, I mean the spirit of what it used to be, not the cesspit of ego popularity by 3 people and botnets that it is now. (The strangest things seem to happen when you act seriously over there, like being banned for trolling boards you've never even heard of. Nuff said)

>>46841155
Hey again, as well. Glad to hear that.
One thing to note about the Youkai side is that they aren't all evil, even though they manifest in some of the more "darker" ways. Koishi for example. Can you really say she's evil if she willingly did what she did? She wanted to avoid causing pain-for her and others. And the testimony of jp users that have run into "her" I can almost bet have some buried pain and desires for comfort on a subconscious level and that's what drew her in (she can sneak past the border a lot easier than others by way of ability, and I've had a few run ins with "her" when younger, myself. Go figure)

I've personally had good luck with the SDM crew. Dreams, that one meeting with "Sakuya", and other events. Currently sitting at one of the desks shown in the manga while using a light from the library and drinking out of a teacup that Remilia uses. Taking these things down has been a pain, but like you said-thrift stores have all kinds of goodies. (And ironically, lots of things shown in the Lost Word art for their house has a bunch of stuff that me and my family used to own when I was little, up through to early 20s. I recently snagged one of the wall-mounted candelabras. Now everyone stay out of thrift stores but me and this Anon so we don't run Kourindou out of "business")

Pick up some kirin and share it. It'll do wonders. Photos are a nice touch, may have to try that. May also attract Aya, and I don't know about that.... though she may like the old camera and typewriter I got laying around.

(Oh, and before I forget; that statue of Okina I got is Daikoku. I also have a Noh mask of an old man. Can you guess what's special about that? Cause I forgot about it until recently.)

>>46841304
>One thing to note about the Youkai side is that they aren't all evil
Yeah, you're right. This all has just been a lot to integrate to be honest. I think they occupy their own niches in the spiritual ecology of Gensokyo than the deities. I think most of them are probably pretty harmless, but some of the more powerful ones could be really troublesome if you get on their bad side.
>thrift stores have all kinds of goodies
Yeah, I'm thinking of basicaly building an altar. I need to find a table suited for such to begin with.
>Pick up some kirin and share it. It'll do wonders.
Interesting idea. I'll give it a try. I started with sake because that is a traditional offering to kami in Japan as far as I know. If I remember correctly, people leave water and rice to their kamidana in private houses, but I am not 100% sure how the whole kamidana system works. I think they are basicaly spirits of the house? They don't really have as much of a system for worshipping the bigger Shinto deities at home, I think? Not sure what buddhists do either with their deities. There's so much to learn! At least I got the sense that they very much arpeciate my efforts and that whatever tension was between us has been settled.
>May also attract Aya, and I don't know about that
Haha maybe if you just left random photos lying around without any particular intention. I think when you dedicate an offering to someone particular there won't be any stray tengus pecking at it.
>that statue of Okina I got is Daikoku
Honestly it's so cool you have something like that.

Okina is so powerful and so misunderstood. I had a wonderful experience on the weekend during the solar storm. I went looking for auroras and had a powerful mental image of her floating in the skies in the middle of them. I thought of it as wishful thinking at that moment. I get to a field where I had the best shot to see auroras. I live in a city, there is a lot of light pollution and I can't see any. But I'm not disapointed as I have a really good view of the Big Dipper there. I realize Okina is associated with. I start feeling this immense sense of connection that just keeps on unfurling. I think of how the Big Dipper is connected to so many different myths, how I am connected to so many other people through having seen Okina, been part of this "fandom", connected to people who truly worshipped her previous iteration as a god, all their ideas, hopes, dreams, fears, everything that has had to come together to bring me to this moment. How I am connected to every molecule of air and every blade of grass in the field. All the people currently living in the city, everyone staring at the skies in this moment. It's magical. It's a most beatiful gift from someone who has been worshipped in three different religions as a god and has learned so, so very much. And as I am about to leave, the auroras blossom. It's not Okina floating among the aurora, but something close enough to it.

>Can you guess what's special about that?
No, tell me more about it? I know Okina is connected to Noh.

Inb4 this thread just becomes the "I totally saw a 2hu anon!" thread.

>>46841637
For the kamidana, the tradition is to leave sake, plain white rice, water, and salt. But you can mix and choose. The sake is left for special occasions in the place of the water sometimes. And the kamidana itself is just a mini dwelling for whatever Kami is enshrined in it, Which can be for the local house deities and/or the ones that have been divided into the ofuda from the main shrine and placed in the alter. Make sure to place it at the highest place in the house with nothing above it, and you can always do the quick fix of writing "sky" in Japanese and placing it above the shrine if nothing else is available. But keep the place clean, supplied, and above all communicate with them. And make sure the space is dedicated to them and that there's a distinct "this place/that place" for where you put them-a demarcation between the sacred and profane/mundane.

Other than that, if you wanna stick with Okina, you can always do the Bigu lifestyle and stay up on the 60th day of the sexagenary calendar to keep those three little bastards from ratting on you to heaven (thy closest is July 28th. Stay up all night to keep them from escaping).

As for the mask, it's literally the Okina mask, and represents an aspect just like Daikoku technically does too.
(Better remember to say Tewi Tewi on a new month to cover all the bases. She helped me get a better job, so I'm sticking to it)

The Kirin is based off theory that Zun drinks it constantly and gets his ideas somewhere, so following sympathetic magic thought and copying what he drinks may help connect better. Doesn't hurt that it tastes great and goes good with food.

>>46841690
>>A 2hu just flew over my house and robbed me of my snacks!!

But really, if kept within reason, isn't that a potentially good thing? Think of how we're helping the Hifuu Club when they find the archives if they know which Hu is who?

>>46841885
>>"thy"

Fuck, I may have channeled Futo there for a minute.

Did I just find some Touhou worshipping cult?

>>46842626
No, but you did find people finding spirituality IN the things and beings it represents.

Many such cases.

Almost missed a few quality posts because of my recursive namefag filter.
Let's not have this turn into a general. Namefagging only brings personality into an otherwise be a pure conversation, and is against the precious spirit of anonymity we try to preserve here.

>>46842699
While I do understand where you're coming from and agree to an extent, I'm only using this name since I am the one they were talking to and so people can keep up with who's who in this thread. After this reaches limit, I'll probably never use it again unless somebody starts asking directly for me.
I don't give a shit, otherwise.

So unless you're just here to state that you're here, what's your connection to all this? Got any 2hu stories that relate to OP?

I need to find Alice

>>46842831
I am going to Alice

Alice? Alice!

>>46842756
I've made a few big posts in these threads, but I want to keep that separate from my opinions on namefaggery. Just wanted to put the opinion out there.

>>46840332
>Interesting idea. What do you suppose the world will look like after we phase transition to gas?
I have no idea. All I know is that order always emerges from chaos, and that we're in an era of unprecedented noospheric chaos. I think we've already had what could be considered higher-order consciousnesses for millennnia, but they'll grow even larger and more powerful, and change form like I mentioned.
Though to call them higher consciousnesses is like calling life a new type of chemical - they're something much more, something we're not meant to imagine, and possibly not able to. Maybe a god is a good analogy.
One thing is for sure, we can't set any limits on what they might be/become capable of. Imagine being a carbon atom, thinking you can only form basic alkanes, only to become part of a microtubule in a human brain and start superconducting (and possibly interfacing with some kind of quantum consciousness field?). That's us before and after we become part of... something.

Do you think it would ever be possible for a human to enter Gensokyo?

>>46843162
The in-universe lore aside, yeah. I've gotten close before.

>>46843289
>I've gotten close before.
Please explain everything that led you to that point

>>46841155
>I ask Chimata if I can return the difficult feelings I am having to nothing. I feel a strong sense of affirmation and the image of her vanishes, as do the emotions.
Returning unwelcome thoughts and desires to nothing is certainly an exciting prospect, I'll have to look into this further. Semi-related, but what does "return(ing) to nothing" mean exactly? I've never heard the term outside of discussions surrounding Chimata
>In general I think if you read a bit about the various gods you probably will pretty quickly infer what kind of things they can give to you.
Any good source recommendations asides from touhouwiki? Once again semi-related but do you also know of any good ways to interact with/worship Chimata asides from possibly a Kamidana? I still live with my parents so making a shrine to her would be a challenge at best.

>>46843162
That sounds like a terrible idea IMO, the amount of spirituality to do anything there would be actually awful for anyone short of a reincarnated Buddha.

>>46843162
Portaling to Gensokyo is a time honored /jp/ tradition.

>>46843289
I hope you're doing better anon.

>>46843758
I'm ready. I can take it.

>>46844029
Good luck then anon, try not to get pranked to death by fairies or eaten by rumia some shit.

>>46841885
Thank you. I've done reading on the subject before, but a lot of it is, you know, "the japanese have this cultural thing and we're not gonna tell you what you need to know from a POV of the act of worship itself because who would want to start worshipping shinto kami haha"...
>Make sure to place it at the highest place in the house with nothing above it
I wonder what even constitutes as the highest point in a flat.
>there's a distinct "this place/that place" for where you put them-a demarcation between the sacred and profane/mundane.
Yes, of course. This has been holding me back a bit, I have had difficulty figuring out where to place it. The options are basicaly bedroom (doesn't feel right, somehow) and living room (guests will see it), but I've kinda stopped caring so much about the "others will see it and abandon me because I'm weird" thing.
>Other than that, if you wanna stick with Okina
Oh, Okina is one of my "big four". For some reason she just has been making a lot of noise lately. Might be the solar activity, somehow.
>>46842626
In the sense of "creepy and controlling small religious sect", absolutely not. In the sense of the root word, cultura, to cultivate...maybe?
>>46842831
Good luck on your quest to find a blonde woman who likes playing with dolls.
>>46843002
That's a lot of food for thought and it's obviously incredibly hard, if not impossible, to predict any of these changes.
>I think we've already had what could be considered higher-order consciousnesses for millennnia
Absolutely.
>>46843162
I'm not sure anymore what exactly "entering Gensokyo" would even mean.
>>46843662
>Returning unwelcome thoughts and desires to nothing is certainly an exciting prospect
A word of caution is needed here. Sometimes unwelcome thoughts and desires are fully justified and even needed. But in my case they were useless hold-overs from the past, hence Chimata released them from me.
>Semi-related, but what does "return(ing) to nothing" mean exactly?
The way I see it: Nothing is full of potential, nothing can become something. When you let something return to nothing you return it to the potential to become something else.
>Any good source recommendations asides from touhouwiki?
It's a good starting point. Then you start kind of unpacking and thinking about everything in there. What are these ichigami that she might be based on? What was that custom of rainbow markets all about? How does this all sit in the larger context of Shinto? And so on. I believe the act of learning about them is also an act of worship, and it allows you to have an ever increasingly fuller picture of them. This, and most likely a wide variety of other spiritual practices, kind of stretches the vessel so to say, allows you to perceive more and more of them without them overwhelming you.
>do you also know of any good ways to interact with/worship Chimata asides from possibly a Kamidana?
In my experience making offerings and doing things in life that are harmonious with her powers work. For the offerings, offering something to drink is good. Find some secluded space where you can leave a cup of drink preferably overnight. Pour some for her and then for you and then just...talk to her. Respectfully. Let her know that you want to feel her presence, understand her better, get to know her.

By doing things that are harmonious with her powers I essentially mean things like supporting local business (ichigami are gods of marketplaces after all) but also "letting things return to nothing", which I see as letting go of things you no longer need. This can be very literal (selling some items you no longer need) or very abstract (letting go of feelings or parts of your personality that no longer serve you).

There's probably more. I have been thinking of experimenting with burning a small amount of paper money and then scattering the ashes from whatever passess as the local equivalent of "Youkai Mountain" here.

Honestly, I am still learning myself, but based on my experiences so far, so long as you do it sincerely and respectfully they are very forgiving to fumbling around. Shinto is extremely focused on doing the rituals right, which is good, but these deities have picked up a lot of other things along the way and they understand that we are extremely removed from the land where they were born.

Is this the /x/ thread?

i ain't reading all that

I don't understand this; Zun created them, they're fictional characters, or are you suggesting that these characters were existing entities that came into contact with Zun who then created a series after them?

>>46846335
These are literal gods, "monsters", and real locations that he took and changed a few things about their description and made a funny little game about while focusing on his music.
And there's a rumor of him being spirited away for a brief time as a kid somewhere but that may just be something the fans came up with, but I also haven't seen all the interviews. The thing about it is that he mimics actual religious and spiritual actions and beliefs of real versions whether he realizes it or not-and he realizes it. He's a lot smarter than people think about this stuff.

(The only time I'll bring this into the discussion and hope it doesn't get hijacked like all the rest)Example:

"There's this guy from the west who made a game series about some place based off of some forgotten religion called "Christianity" and acts as it's "priest". The main character is somebody called "Jaysoos" that takes care of a run down church that's inhabited by a really important god, but he let's "sinners" run all over the place. These are only characters from a game that some guy made. Why are you all acting like this has real relevance and that this "Jaysoos" character is interacting with fans of the series?"-Your post from a different viewpoint.

Theses gods, other beings, and ideas all existed or were believed to exist by people for hundreds, and in some case thousands, of years. All that happened is a drunk college student gave them a face lift for modern audiences and renewed interest in their existence from others.
(Just like the Fate series is based on a ton of real world people and real legends. The forms has changed, but there was a Gilgamesh, Ishtar, Hercules, etc.)

>>46846949
I see.
>And there's a rumor of him being spirited away for a brief time as a kid somewhere
This is the most interesting part of your post, can you please elaborate/ provide more info on it?

>>46846984
He lived in Hakuba as a child, which is right in the middle/next door to a major hotspot of weird happenings, legends, and stories, in a county that's known as a hub for the weird and strange. I can't say one way or the other, but there's rumors or real remarks about him discussing that he was briefly spirited away as a kid in the countryside. Or that's just a cover for a guy that's actually working with these beings, whether they're sitting at his kitchen table and discussing what's happening, or he drew the attention of real beings and acts as a medium while in his trance state of beer-induced focus when he's making the games.
I can only read a limited amount of Japanese, but haven't gone looking deeply with a translation app either. All I can say is that the idea or concept of him falling down a hill and ending up in the spirit world or whatever has been floating around about the same time as Reimu's ability to float.

And if you go claiming to be the head priest of a shrine that's based on a real shrine(several, actually), then it's no surprise when whatever is in said shrine takes notice and follows through in some way. Plus, dreams and the dream journey are ways older religions and spiritual beliefs had to receive messages from the other places. So he may not have fallen face first into Yukari's foyer, but he may have ended up in strange places in his dreams-alcohol was said to get us closer to communicating with the gods, after all.

I love Youmu. I want to be at her side always, and that's the only thing I'll ever ask for. She reached out to me when I didn't feel like I had reasons to go on. Ive always admired her, and idolized her. Her beauty, her grace, her strength. To me, she's always been more, more than someone to worship or a goddess. I love her, I love Konpaku Youmu with all my soul. I even wanted to give her everything that I am, my all, and she remarks often how I was so silly to do so without even asking any wish to her; only being at her side, being able to make her happy would give me all the bliss I was never even able to imagine. I longed for that so much. I repeated my wishes over and over, hoping for them to affect my dreams, to break the 'reality' I never cared for, not caring if a devil or a deity granted them. I pleaded, I begged, I yearned to be with her so much my heart wouldn't stop agonizing. I love her, I love her, just being able to touch her once, or to confess my feelings and hear her answer would be worth to me any sacrifice. But she'll never allow that. She promised me. That she will come for me, and I am to take the long path, the one leading to her

>>46841155
for some reason, I am very spiritually attached to yoshika, but she is a mindless human eating zombie, so I'm not sure what to think of it. I often dream and think about her.
the second is shou, but she has proven to be a righteous youkai so I'm much less worried about that.

>>46846335
To put shortly how I see it: existing entities that have been interpreted through ZUN's particular point of view. As Touhou has gained momentum, more and more entities have joined Gensokyo's spiritual ecology. What's the closest biological metaphor for this - migration, hybridization or assimilation - I don't really know. The idea of gods and spirits migrating and changing forms in the process seem odd from modern western point of view, but it really isn't if you look at history.
>>46846949
>there's a rumor of him being spirited away for a brief time as a kid
That's really fascinating and would explain basicaly everything.
>>46847199
>Hakuba
Hakuba...Hakurei...hmmmm...
>And if you go claiming to be the head priest of a shrine that's based on a real shrine(several, actually)
I had no idea that the Hakurei Shrine is based on a real shrine...
>it's no surprise when whatever is in said shrine takes notice and follows through in some way
Even just calling yourself the head priest of anything is going to call something in eventually.

Honestly my working theory regarding the origin of it all was something he'd call "the Hakurei god" grazing his mind when he was younger, it leaving an impression on him, him going on to call himself a head priest of it for whatever reason ("funny joke", some form of belief, whatever) and then slowly growing to the role. I really need to get around digging into the pc98 era, I had a feeling that something happened during the transition from pc98 to windows, but it might run way, way deeper than that.
>>46848013
>That she will come for me, and I am to take the long path, the one leading to her
I wish you best of luck on your path, anon.
>>46848138
>I am very spiritually attached to yoshika
That's really interesting, I don't really know what to make of that either. Especially considering her strong link to Seiga, which you apparently don't feel..? How is she like in your dreams and thoughts?
>shou
You have been invited to study Bishamonten.

2hu creepypaste thread when

>>46850243
thanks for the reply, I do see seiga sometimes but very rarely on her own and mostly in relation to yoshika. I think I just relate to her a lot, I feel not much control over myself, and I think about her past as an artist a lot. so maybe its a sort of camaraderie? I reached the conclusion that she probably had autism like me when she was alive. I know how silly this sounds but its fun and interesting to think about.
I have been reading up on buddhism and bishamonten after an experience with shrooms (psychedelic drugs seem to be a common key here) but nothing relating to 2hus. it has been very enlightening. I started seeing bishamonten now though mostly as an extension of touhou.

>>46843662
>Semi-related, but what does "return(ing) to nothing" mean exactly? I've never heard the term outside of discussions surrounding Chimata
I've always figured that its similar to Junko's power in a way, in that returning something to nothing increases its divinity. Her ability lets people relinquish ownership completely and absolutely.

>>46850243
Yeah, Hakuba shrine isn't the only one it's based off of. And it's weird, because the place is the Jomina shrine, but due to how things are read "Jo" is read as "Haku" and "Mina" is read as "Rei". Japanese wordplay for the (confusing) win.

Also, "Hakuba" can be translated to "White horse", and there's a lake/pond by the name of "White horse" near where Gensokyo is said to be. Specifically, our Misty Lake. Another Anon that was in here was talking about it a year or two ago. Did some looking and there's some very eye opening naming schemes for a lot of the places-like a little forgotten shrine near Mt Reizan.

Haku->Rei-san.

And the Jomina shrine was destroyed by the Nagano earthquake thanks to Tenshi.

>>pc98
Ironically, the first five are full of apocryphal Christian themes that deal with Revelation. Shinki=Lucifer and all that. (He based out heavily on the Megami Tensei series, so...)

>>46848013
I am also wishing you luck in this, as I can see where you're coming from in a way. They can be great guides and supporters, just make sure they're not guiding you to a cliff edge. Standard stuff.

Where's Kanako Anon? Okina is technically her mother/father and a piece is trapped in the Moriya shrine under Daikoku.

>>46850546
Another fun fact about Jiangshi is that the last sighting of one was back in the 1950s or 60s, so she's not that far behind. Maybe.

>>46850671
It could have something to do with the concept of 0, or nothingness, holding the potential of everything in its source. By removing it back to nothing, the potential increases. Like quantum physics and the observer effect, which Zun seems really drawn to in both its mystical and modern sense of conceptual understanding.

>>46850748
I've just been lurking but I've been to that shrine back in November. I do believe it's read as Jomine though, but don't quote me on that.
Two more pics here (I suck at compression so I couldn't make a collage): https://files.catbox.moe/9lbifo.rar
Two things that might interest you guys:
-My GPS actually stopped working there, despite the fact that area wasn't particularily isolated, high up or anything (it's a very small path up, and the road is, were it not up a very small "hill", like less than a 100 steps from the torii. As to why I checked my phone, see the next point
-More importantly, as someone who had been NEETing it up since 2020, my ankles and just feet in general were in actual great pain due to going on essentially 3 hikes during my visit (2 that day), the path up to the shrine was small, but I could barely walk by the time I even reached it, and I do mean barely.
After offering some money, giving a quick greeting (I don't actually wish for stuff when visiting shrine, I look up who the god enshrined is and just give my greetings, I didn't find what Jomine had though, I do think it's a mix of amaterasu and an agregation of gods? I forgot) so I just thought "to whichever god this concerns[...]", and after giving them a little listen to Reimu's theme because why not, I did wish (but not really as I didn't like asking for anything) if they could lift the pain until I walked back to the station, which was a good 3km away (a small distance to most, but a deadly one to me at that moment. I also had to catch the last train of the day, so no slacking)
Moment I got up, all pain in my ankle was gone and I made it to the station just fine with no pain at all, even made it all the way back to the hotel in Suwa before the pain starting coming back. I can't really put it to me resting at the shrine since I only stayed there a good 20 minutes, standing the entire time besides when playing Reimu's theme, which I know from previous rest on the way there would not be enough to make the pain completely go away.
What was nice is that the bottles featured on my pictures were actually full, looks like they were going to enjoy that later...

I did want to go to Misty lake, but the bus there weren't in service at the time, I think I missed them by a few weeks. No way I could walk there anyway... Thank you for reading my blog.

>>46850546
>so maybe its a sort of camaraderie
That would make sense yeah. Maybe she is also interested in the fact that even though you don't feel as much in control of your life as you could, you are still more free than she is?
>I have been reading up on buddhism and bishamonten after an experience with shrooms
Did the experience feature Bishamonten?
>I started seeing bishamonten now though mostly as an extension of touhou.
It's really good at taking other deities and legends into itself, isn't it?

>>46850671
>that returning something to nothing increases its divinity
That's an interesting idea.

>>46850748
>Hakuba shrine
That's wild. I found this when digging for Jomina Shrine: https://w.atwiki.jp/th_seiti/pages/53.html
I can't read japanese at all though.
>a little forgotten shrine near Mt Reizan
Which of the nearby mountains is it? I googled for it just found that reizan is a broad term for sacred mountains in Japan.

Also, wow, Suwa is really close to Hakuba.
Hakuba was also apparently basicaly woods untill the 1880s.
Hmmm...
>Megami Tensei
It's really funny, judging by present incarnation of Touhou you wouldn't necessarily think he was ever into that stuff, but it does make sense. Both feature intermingling of magic, myth and modernity.

>>46850979
Not to worry, I'm glad you shared. You and I have much more in common than you may realize for all this-foot pain included. Mine's chronic, and they did the same thing.

>>46851005
I'll update a map in. A little bit on the locations, but yeah it's all on top of one another.

>>46850979
That's so cool!!!
I really want to go there one day too...
>My GPS actually stopped working there, despite the fact that area wasn't particularily isolated
Oh wow, that's interesting, all kinds of interference with modern tech tends to get reported at special sites like these.

>I don't actually wish for stuff when visiting shrine
>after giving them a little listen to Reimu's theme because why not
>all pain in my ankle was gone and I made it to the station just fine with no pain at all
That's so wonderful. They must have been so happy to have such a nice, considerate, well-behaved and good-hearted visitor from so far away! Of course they would bless you!

>>46851005
no, it did not feature bishamonten, no gods whatsoever actually but it was probably because I wasn't familiar with them at that time. I just felt how buddhist concepts describe the world firsthand. mostly the never ending cycle, causes and conditions, etc. weirdly, I often have images in my mind constantly but my experience with shrooms removed them completely (though they were on the weaker side). so I mostly sat down thinking about the world philosophically with very clear thoughts.
I think yoshika can feel the immense (platonic) love I feel towards her maybe and that's why she sticks in my mind so often.
this thread has been very cool to read through, my thanks to all the posters.

>>46851038
>the never ending cycle, causes and conditions, etc
That's really powerful stuff. It must be one thing to read about them and another to experience them firsthand so strongly.
> I often have images in my mind constantly but my experience with shrooms removed them completely
That's fascinating, I think with a lot of people it's basicaly the opposite?
>I think yoshika can feel the immense (platonic) love I feel towards her
Well, of course that is going to draw her in!
>this thread has been very cool to read through, my thanks to all the posters.
Yeah it has been much better than I expected and I already dared to have my hopes up a bit considering there's been interesting discussion about these themes in various threads along the past couple of months.

>>46841132
>Some things change, some things stay the same
Exactly, I agree that everything is in a state of perpetual change, with the sole constant in life paradoxically being change. However, caught up in the astounding present as you seen to be, you seem to ignore that we also live in a cyclical existence, merely a part of an infinite cycle. Sure history could accelerate, but there is always a fall after a rise, with the next age taking over the old. I cannot take accelerationism seriously because of its assumption that this age is somehow special and that history will only progress, rather than repeat. What you propose is yet another doomsday, and history has shown that we'll need to wait quite a while before a real one comes.

>>46858646
>Not factually false, but empty of all meaning and information
How can you post in a Touhou thread (heavily Buddhist influenced) without accepting this? You seem a bit confused like most /x/ posters, who are just writing from imagination rather than intuition.

>>46851030
Any progress on the map?
>>46858646
>cyclical existence
Just out of curiosity, how long do you think these cycles are?
Also, what do you think of the taoist idea of time being cyclical, but also being a kind of an expanding spiral?
>>46858661
>empty of all meaning and information
>Buddhist
I have to say that it's incredibly difficult to really, really get this idea. I can understand it on the level that yeah, ultimately we put labels on things for reasons of convenience driven largely by conventions derived from socialization and biology. Beyond that? It would probably take years of practice to get it.
>imagination rather than intuition
Would you care to elaborate on this? What do you think of the idea presented in some traditions that imagination (I think strictly the visual aspect?) is a kind of intermediary layer between sensory world and spirit world?

>>46860198
Honestly no, not yet. I got pulled away with personal life and have been dealing with that since then. I should be able to provide one in about an hour or two, though everything I pull from is technically common knowledge and has been done before.

>>46860536
That's okay.
>everything I pull from is technically common knowledge
It's new to me. I do really apreciate the effort, for what's it worth.

its when I read the finer works of writer

>>46860198
>Just out of curiosity, how long do you think these cycles are?
As long as a mahayuga, the time for which I am not remembering but is very long. Also, could you please elaborate about the taoist idea of time
>I have to say that it's incredibly difficult to really, really get this idea
Of course, it's a long process to truly gain understanding
>Would you care to elaborate on this
Sure. I wanted to say that rather than simply taking sudden insights as undeniable truth, one should instead try to apply ones powers of intuition to understanding the world around them, for the world is equally mystical as the greatest dream. Seeking excitement and disruption of monotony as we often do, we sometimes forget this. This is why I say that imagination is a good way to ready the mind for the transcendental, however it is not the answer inherently.

>>46860198
Is that Jesus or a jedi knight

>>46803112
What is the spiritual implication of this?

>>46866829
>I am not remembering but is very long
Apparently hundreds of thousands of years.
>could you please elaborate about the taoist idea of time
I'm not terribly familiar with it, but it has cropped up a couple of times in the material I've come across so far. Basicaly, there is a repeating cycle of kind of "event archetypes" so to say. Similar events happen over and over again in certain order, history rhymes but but doesn't repeat in a closed cycle, it's a spiral. I don't really know what the "expansion" of this spiral means. Does some other kind of cycle stretch out longer? Some modern interpretations link it to the physical expansion of the universe, supposing that ancient taoist calculations line up very well with what has been observed by modern astronomy. I have no idea if this is true, but it would be rather wild if it were so.

Honestly taoism is really fascinating in how it's such a self-contained but dynamic system. Diging into the fundaments of it also makes it really funny how outrageous it's presentation in Touhou is.
>Of course, it's a long process to truly gain understanding
I do have to say now that I have read the materials regarding buddhism that got infodumped with me there is a lot in there that does resonate with me, but a lot of it is also very difficult. I suppose the difficult isn't rare, having some of it feel familiar already from other life experiences and schools of thought entirely removed from buddhism might be a bit unusual though.
>simply taking sudden insights as undeniable truth
Yeah, it's very easy to get swept up in all of it, and perhaps I am, but for me it has been a long trickle of things building up untill I just had to stop "entertaining the hypotheticals" and acknowledge at the very least the reality of what I am experiencing.

I still think some of the things I experience are either basicaly garbage or then severely incomplete. It's like trying to understand a language I barely speak and there is also some kind of distortion or "packet loss" along the way. But some things that seemed too fanciful or just bizarre have started to make sense in later context.
>the world is equally mystical as the greatest dream
That's very much true, and the most profound spiritual experience of my life, going out to the park, seeing the Big Dipper, feeling an immense sense of connection to my surroundings and everyone who has ever seen the Big Dipper, was basicaly just me being really, really present in the moment. But would I have attached such big meaning to seeing this constellation as to have such a strong experience without other things? Probably not.

That said, I have had lesser such moments lately, just doing things like observing reflections of the city on the sea or admiring trees in the park or whatever. All of reality is starting to feel magical, ensouled, enchanted. At the same time I find myself losing interest in things such as various forms of instant gratification, intoxicants and eating animal products. I don't want to make an ever elaborate escape hatch out of reality, I want to cultivate this newfound perception which I would have never developed if I had not started digging deeper into the various religions and their esoteric systems portrayed within these games. I'm not special or different, I can't be the only one who could find something like this via the things that inspired these games.
>This is why I say that imagination is a good way to ready the mind for the transcendental, however it is not the answer inherently
I think that is a very valid point of view, at least for avoiding using all of this as a kind of escape hatch, which then again, for some could be exactly what the need right at this moment. But I do have a particular interest in the idea of visual imagination is a kind of intermediary layer between the natural world and spirit world.

A tiny bit of background is necessary to set context though. I am basicaly aphantasic. I don't really have mental images. I can't picture an apple, let alone rotate cubes in my brain. Ever since I started digging deeper into the esoteric elements surrounding Touhou I however have been getting more and more extremely vivid, if often fleeting visual imagery related to the topic.

Not to stretch this out too much, I have come to the conclusion that these are a form of communication to me. You could psychologize it as being purely subconscious, you could completely externalize it. Personally I don't really even care about the exact nature, but I do overwhelmingly feel like it comes from bening divinity. What ultimately matters is that following the calling they represent has made me more sober, healthier, present, happier, aware and empathetic than I have ever been in my life. If this is an illusion, it is an illusion more powerful than any drive to power, status, wealth or sex that I used to try and horribly fail to motivate myself to get forwards to some external, shallow goal.

>>46867905
I try to be wary of delving to far into that. After all another anons are saying they are just be demons

check 'm

>Thoughtless being in the depths of the underworld being helped and protected by its residents
>Byakuren considers her free of pain due to being free of thought and her destroyed ego
>And technically free of existence
>Not only that, but Koishi did herself in
>There's a fanfiction where the world gets worse because of "pure" divine forces on the moon and she's heavily involved, left as one of the only hopes of stopping them since she left her state of thoughtlessness to become an opposing force instead of giving in to what she was pre-lobotomy
Is Koishi Jon Nodtveidt?

>>46872026
"Whatcha thinking about?"
"Nothing, really."
"Amazing, she has reached the third Vajrayana!"

>>46872054
In her defense, it's less Koishi not thinking of anything, and more there being almost no Koishi left to even think

>>46867905
>>46871010
Well, even if they were demonic, or let's say they fill a kind of predatory niche within the spiritual ecology of Gensokyo, or that they don't necessarily have the best interests of humans in mind...one certain anon had positive experiences with the SDM crew, and none of the above should prevent talking about it, so let's go.

Popular depictions of vampires fall into essentially two categories: the aristocrat and the monster. Their ur-examples in western fiction are Dracula and Nosferatu.

Remilia is obviously the Dracula, the aristocrat. She brings her own touch to it, as >>46803112 pointed out. There's two sides to the coin of the aristocrat vampire. On one level it's a depiction of nobility as it was, refined and cultured yet also essentially parasitic and cruelty. These sort of traits are of course appealing to great many people, either because they wish to cultivate these traits in themselves, or are simply drawn to power as many are. On the other level, this depiction of a vampire represented certain Victorian English sexual anxieties about well-dressed, cultured, hot-blooded mainland European men seducing British women. One person's sexual anxiety is another one's arousal. So what would this sort of sexual anxiety look from another perspective? Perhaps a young maiden who is unaging, capable of drawing in certain men with a mix of refinement, power, youth and vulnerability that some find irresistible. It's precisely this contradictory mix of features that then drives her fans to be so verbose.

Flandre is the Nosferatu. She, like all inhabitants of Gensokyo, present themselves as cute, yet she is somewhat monstrous in comparison to her sister, sporting bizarre wings and a much more nastier and childish attidute. The Nosferatu is more of a simple monster, a terrible thing lurking in the dark, but even this archetype is not without it's component of sexual anxiety. This too is simpler and more straightforward, it's fear and loathing towards rapists. Now Flandre is not such by any means, but she is a kind of a twisted inversion of it. She is a false damsel-in-distress, a venus flytrap, an ambush predator, waiting somewhere in the mansion's basement to be "saved", which would only resort in her wreaking havoc. She is ultimately a simple creature, hence her fans find no reason to be wordy about their preferences.
>>46872026
>Jon Nodtveidt
I had never even heard of this dude before. Surely you don't mean Koishi is gonna KYS and I'm not talking about kissing Satori?

But yeah, on a more serious note, her no-mind thing is a really interesting concept. Where do they go with that and the celestials in the fanfic?

>>46868297
>A tiny bit of background is necessary to set context though. I am basicaly aphantasic. I don't really have mental images. I can't picture an apple, let alone rotate cubes in my brain. Ever since I started digging deeper into the esoteric elements surrounding Touhou I however have been getting more and more extremely vivid, if often fleeting visual imagery related to the topic.
Interesting. In my case, I have always been prone to daydream, and this has only gotten worse with time (in terms of detail and enjoyment, mostly). There are moments where I have to forcefully pull myself together and carry on with the day's activities, even if it's not what my reward system prefers at the moment.

>>46882132
>I have always been prone to daydream
Do you feel that these are wholly internal? How much control you have over the directions where they go and what happens?

The differences between people in these type of things are extremely fascinating.
>only gotten worse with time (in terms of detail and enjoyment, mostly)
I assume you mean they have gotten more detailed and immersive? I suppose you get better at what you do, and if you daydream your whole life you get really good at it.
>it's not what my reward system prefers at the moment
You're much more than just your reward system. Keep that in mind.

As for my mental image situation, normaly when I try to imagine something can get extremely vague, very fleeting images that don't have much detail or color. Like white fog on black, or ugly brownish pink on pearly brown. I can recall imagery from memories, but this mostly works with extremely emotionally powerful memories and is also mostly very fleeting.

The imagery I get related to the topic is far more vivid, colorful and while it's not long lasting, sometimes I've seen things that have lasted several seconds instead of being like this millisecond flash that my attemps at wilfully generating imagery are.

You could say this is a nothingburger, but there is one time during my life something like this happened to me. It was during my first foray into the occult that went horribly wrong. I was bombarded with horrifying, intrusive mental imagery for like two months. I had frequent fits of sleep paralysis, including one where I saw an entity biting my cheek and I could feel the pain but not wake up from it. There were also other stuff - weird noises, strange smells, electrical devices acting up...

It was all too much. I gave up, and eventually the phenomena subsided. I disbelieved it, pushed it aside. But you can't really unlearn what has been learned, really forget what has been experienced.

So when I started getting extremely vivid, intense mental imagery related to the topic at hand coupled with a strong desire to learn about the esoteric and the occult again it was simultanouesly fascinating and alluring but also extremely stressfull and confusing, especially when it started taking a bit scary manifestations.

But acknowledging them, talking to them, apologizing for posting certain things about them, clearing out the mutual confusion and starting the process of working out a proper form and pace of communication made the scary manifestations vanish. Not everyone in the spirit realm is nefarious, but you can make even good ones upset if you start backpedaling, leave the "people" on the other end of the line hanging.

>>46885555
>>You could say this is a nothingburger, but there is one time during my life something like this happened to me. It was during my first foray into the occult that went horribly wrong. I was bombarded with horrifying, intrusive mental imagery for like two months. I had frequent fits of sleep paralysis, including one where I saw an entity biting my cheek and I could feel the pain but not wake up from it. There were also other stuff - weird noises, strange smells, electrical devices acting up...


Wait a damn minute...
Seems you and I have some similarities in experience here. Glad things have worked out so far.

(And sorry about the delay in map)

>>46885855
>Seems you and I have some similarities in experience here.
A lot of inexperienced and some even more experienced magicans have similar experiences. I did basicaly everything wrong with my first attempt, the all time hall of fame of impure motives, confused motives, being too hasty, being too impatient, attempting to use magic to influence others, being drawn to "edgy" materials, working in a really horrible headspace, doing rituals in spaces where I did not ask permission from the resident spirits, and of course the number one idiot mistake, attempting to summon spirits without specifying who I want to see, where and when. It's a miracle I only had as bad time as I had.

>Glad things have worked out so far.
I'm really thankful for your advice. I can't overstate how life-changing it was. Things have been amazing since then. I don't think they would have hurt me, they were just upset and confused about some things and neither me or them fully yet understand how to communicate effectively, but we are working it out. Part of the scariness was basicaly just them trying to shout at me louder to get my full attention, but as you said, it's overwhelming to the subconscious and manifests as fear.
>And sorry about the delay in map
It's OK, you have your own life and priorities. I'm just thankful you are working on it.

Mt. Tengu and just plain Reizan. Very interesting.

heh

>>46886255
That seems to be a common theme with me here and other places-I can give good advice that helps others but struggle myself. Something to be said about the wounded healer and all that. Either way, you're welcome for what little I could provide. You've helped me in your own posts, so a little give and take I suppose.

Yeah, Mt. Tengu, Mt. Reizan, and all that area in the picture correlates with a very rough "real world" location of Gensokyo, mixed with a bit of Hakuba, Suwa, and Chino, then the other side of Tengu-dake, which isn't really fleshed out that much that we know of just yet. It's technically "Heaven", but that's only because Gensokyo views it as above the mountain and we look at it from the 2d perspective.

And what's left of our little Hakurei shrine is at the base of Reizan, whereas theirs is halfway up, to at the top. Things get wibbly wobbly from there on correlation, and maybe intentionally.

>>46886481
I can also add that there is a legend of another world in that area, historically. It involves roughly the same method as what Yukari did to get to the moon, or what the Hifuu members did, though getting to the other side, as opposed to "up". Think mirrors and reflection.
The locals either didn't remember the full story, or they were reluctant to share the details with a gaijin other than a general "yes, there's a story like that".

>>46886587
And one more thing of interest before I let someone else take the wheel:

Up there in that mountain range, there is a bird that makes a call with the exact note progression as Kyouko's theme song at the very beginning, from start to 3 seconds in. I have no idea what the bird is, but it's funny that Yamabiko were known to appear as a type of bird in some legends.

>>46886481
>I can give good advice that helps others but struggle myself
Look, if you want to, when I make the next offering to my big four, I can ask them to deliver a blessing to you. I'm sure they would be willing to extend their favor to you, considering it was you who allowed me to finally properly reach out to them. You already have some connection to two of them. Whatever it is that is ailing you, you don't need to tell, I am sure they can help with if just a bit.
>all that area in the picture correlates with a very rough "real world" location of Gensokyo
That's really fascinating, it's so cool that there is a place with some correlation to it on Earth. I don't know if that should be surprising or not, but it's really damn cool either way.
>Things get wibbly wobbly from there on correlation, and maybe intentionally
Yeah it might very well be so.
>I can also add that there is a legend of another world in that area, historically
Oh, of course. Please tell me it's also an UFO hotspot..?
>Think mirrors and reflection.
Very, very, very interesting considering how heavily mirrors feature in all kinds of legends and magic.
>they were reluctant to share the details with a gaijin
I can definitively imagine that being the case. People can be very hush hush about such things even among themselves, especially if the area is a hotspot of legends and perhaps even present day strange activities..?
>>46886673
ZUN basing a song on birdsong is so cool, let alone if it's perhaps a type of bird associated with the yamabiko. Super fascinating stuff and I want to go there one day myself for sure!

>>46886850
Who are your big four?

>>46886850
Ask them to push things so I can go back to Japan and visit the Moriya shrine like I had promised them, and maybe physically get me into Gensokyo for a visit. I'll even spread the word more than I technically am now, and can raise up the belief in all of them to others.

>>locations
There's a note that the Hakurei shrine is technically facing the Outside world, with its backdoor facing into Gensokyo. That correlates with the remains of our shrine (and there's even a little pond where a turtle could hang out, for instance).


>>wobbly stuff
I'm no quantum physicist, but with Yukari's description of hour the borders work (both of them), figuring out a way to unfold a non-euclidian hyperspace that turns in on itself Luke a rubberbanding effect mixed with a moebius strip is above a great many people. Though with the new Hifuu album dropping clues, waves may hold a key. Like sound waves, and the repeated melody Zun is so fond of.... if everything is a wave and particles don't exist, then waves don't exist, but they do because reality exists, but it doesn't, so the forgotten things that end up in Gensokyo don't exist, but they do, and now I'm somehow in the middle of the woods with things growling at me and speaking a weird dialect of Japanese. Moving on.

Tons of UFO sightings, and sightings of Yosei. You could even find pictures of them on Google maps where others had taken pictures of places in that area, but it's since been updated and I can't find it anymore. It was little rainbow colored glowing balls of light, streaking across a section of woods in the photo.

Mirrors aren't the only thing that reflects.....

Here's a fun fact for you: the otherworldly like to hide in plain sight, slightly shifted to some degree, just outside our perception.

Look up what Marchen means in other languages.

Belieb

>>46886923
In no particular order: Kanako, Okina, Keiki, Chimata.
>>46887021
>Ask them to push things so I can go back to Japan and visit the Moriya shrine like I had promised them
Very well. I am undertaking a 33 day long process where I am trying to establish better contact to them, broaden the bandwidth so to say. This includes putting a particular focus on one of the deities for a week at a turn. Kanako's turn begins on Sunday the 26th. I will ask her to help you out to hold on to your promise. Things will start to change from that day on, even if it's just a slight bit.
>backdoor facing into Gensokyo
>correlates with the remains of our shrine
Hmmm, backdoors, I wonder where I have seen this before.
>Tons of UFO sightings
Oh. Of course. As if that wasn't obvious by this point.
>It was little rainbow colored glowing balls of light, streaking across a section of woods in the photo
Classic!
>Mirrors aren't the only thing that reflects
Large bodies of water also certainly reflect things.
>Look up what Marchen means in other languages
I will.

>>46887021
>Marchen
Do you mean Märchen? Fairy tales?

>>46889677
Thank you for that. I'll look forward to the day and the subsequent ones after.

>>46894928
That's the one.
Like it's leading right up to the place, and if you look at the Gensokyo "maps" it almost falls on the same path as the road of Reconsideration.

>>46885555
>Do you feel that these are wholly internal? How much control you have over the directions where they go and what happens?
That's a very good question. Depending on how absorbed I am, my fantasies may go through all the steps of the creative process... or skip all the way to visualization, as though I always had those ideas in mind and how I'd like them to play out.
For the sake of transparency, the latter mainly happens during exercise and other mentally-stimulating activities carried out in my privacy (I'll admit that listening to ZUN tracks simultaneously makes this easier). It's almost uncanny how naturally said thoughts come about sometimes.
On the flip side, they tend to be in 3rd person and rarely (if ever) involve 'myself', but I suppose that's an inevitable byproduct of my lacking self-esteem and my appreciation for the already established characters.
>I assume you mean they have gotten more detailed and immersive? I suppose you get better at what you do, and if you daydream your whole life you get really good at it.
Correct. In all fairness, people seeing 'movies' in their head isn't exactly unheard of.
>You're much more than just your reward system. Keep that in mind.
Oh, of course. It's just that my obligations demand a certain degree of focus, that's all.

Your experience is truly fascinating. Out of curiosity, have your overall imagination/visualization skills improved since then? Have you considered chasing some form of creative or cultural expression as a means to improve it?

Even within this very thread the supernatural aspects of reality permeate.

MAGIC DOESN'T EXIST RETARDS

>>46895872
Hylics seething

>>46895872
>t. christcuck

>>46895872
It's a lost art

>>46895872
Magic exists but they're false arts.

If magic doesn't exist, then it's in Gensokyo. And if it's in Gensokyo, then I've been right outside its "doors" and know it exists because it's a real place. You can't stop me no matter who you are.

Checkmate, losers. Seethe and mald.

(This is fun.)

What do you anons notice about this thread that's peculiar?

>>46896472
It's mostly devolved into me and one other person posting?

>>46896877
Can't imagine why

>>46896915
Then add to the conversation. We've dropped plenty of stuff on our end.

>>46896926
Not really interested in engaging with anons who keep going on about "me, me! I saw a touhou omg!"

>>46896942
Then two things:
1. Why come into the place specifically if that's what you think is going on unless you're looking to start something and talk about yourself?
2. If that's not the case and you're here because you like the topic that OP was going for, why aren't you adding anything of relevance to the conversation and ignoring those of us you're accusing of doing such?

Good thing nothing like that's going on in here, then, huh?

Look 'round

>>46895848
>my fantasies may go through all the steps of the creative process
What do you mean by steps of the creative process?
>as though I always had those ideas in mind and how I'd like them to play out
Interesting. The psychological interpretation would of course be that the process has been subconscious, or perhaps daydreaming really is like dreaming.
>the latter mainly happens during exercise
This could have something to do with some hormonal activity or simply oxygenation of the blood...I find myself thinking (or drifting into memories) much better when excercising.
> they tend to be in 3rd person and rarely (if ever) involve 'myself'
Very, very, interesting. I don't think I have ever had a 3rd person visual.
>lacking self-esteem
For what's it worth, you don't seem like a bad anon at all.
>my appreciation for the already established characters
Or then you are scrying into Genskyo for real hehe.
>have your overall imagination/visualization skills improved since then?
Maybe a tiny bit? I've actually tried intentionally visualizing stuff more often recently, it's not great unless it involves memories or them, but it might be a bit better.
>chasing some form of creative or cultural expression as a means to improve it?
I've already started, though it was more that I felt I was compelled to do so (Keiki's influence) and less as a method to improve visualizations skills.
>>46895854
Discussions about the supernatural become a locus for the supernatural, yes.
>>46895872
I suppose what you mean to say is "supernatural doesn't exist". Even without the supernatural magic "exists" in the flattest possible sense, and it has "real" impact on at the very minimum psychological and social level. A lot of the practices are basicaly meditation. You could, someone has, filled entire libraries with the very real effects it has on the human psychology and even brain on physical level.

Becoming familiar with the various archetypcal and symbolic systems is "real" in the sense that they are ways to conceptualize events, people and their tendencies and meanings. Is it The Valid way? I don't know? Is there even The Valid way to begin with?

Beyond that, attemps to focus on achieving something is going to change at least you, if even just a tiny bit. The various moral systems within different schools of thought are going to have an impact on you.

Cultivating forms of thinking where things you thought were previously impossible just might be possible is going to change you. Cultivating forms of thinking where not only you, but others, maybe including things like animals and nature, are on some fundamental level worthy.

Becoming involved in social scenes surrounding such these practices and beliefs will, of course, change you, as much as we like to do deny the impact others have on us.

So in the most flat, boring sense "magic" is very much "real", as in there are people who practice it, believe it, engage with others about it, and this has a measurable impact on them. There are entirely psychological ways to view it. Personally, I can't disbelieve that there is something else to it, at the very least on the level where I really don't know what, where on when this "psyche" of which we are trying to derive "logos" from is and what it can and can't do.
>>46896942
You are right. I admit, I have been a shitty host to this thread. I could and should have asked people more about their experiences and views. I understand that there are a ton of missed opportunities for better discussions over the course of this thread.

I have been extremely self-centered and my experiences, which have completely overwhelmed me, are a nothingburger to 98% of the population. Their full impact is impossible to transmit over the text and it indeed comes off as "omg I saw a touhou", even though that is absolutely not the core of the matter.

If you had something you wanted to share but you got ignored or steamrolled, I am truly sorry. You deserve a chance to be heard.

My only defence is that /jp/ is literally the only place where I get called out for my shit anymore. Thank you.

>>46877817
>the Nosferatu
I'll be pedantic and autistic for a second just to clarify his name is Orlok. Count Orlok.

>>46898355
Interesting, I didn't actually know that. Thanks for sharing. I've seen the archetype being called Nosferatu though. That might come from the Vampire: The Masquerade RPG though, where the clan of ugly monstrous vampires was called that.

>>46898156
Nah keep going please, i've been lurking here for a while this is really interesting stuff.

I almost wrote a wall of text reply about how much i like the touhou concept of 'faith', and my theory on how it exists irl as well, but in a very convoluted way. I couldn't write coherently enough and decided to not write anything yet since im a little drunk rn.

>>46902860
Nosferatu was a quasi-real name the creators of the movie used as an "old" Romanian name that means "vampire", but the name of the vampire in said movie is Count Orlok. It's also where the origin of what we modernly call a "vampire" gets the weakness of bursting into flame in the sunlight, and was done as a visual way to show that the evil had been vanquished. The original lore of vampires had them basically getting weaker and sleeper, with a lot of them getting a bad sunburn. There are other myths and legends of similar beings like our modern vampire that did die in the sun, but the Scarlets don't have that weakness and can just come back after a time. Also, once Patchouli actually does door, she's technically gonna come back as another vampire thanks to how old Western superstition viewed witches. (Marisa, too?)

>>46903145
*squint*
That would be something to hear, "Anon", but surely only an Oni or a singular Japanese man in particular would be in that situation.

Really though, share if you're willing. This place and what OP is doing is wonderfully refreshing. I'm just here for the ride and to help out if I can with all this autistic knowledge I've got.

>>46898156
Live and learn, friend. It's a give and take- everyone else stopping by had, and has, ample opportunity to post whatever they wish to contribute. Just glad somebody with a similar mindset is around still. I'll keep you updated on the 26th since you're going out of your way to do that for me.

>>46898355
I guess it's a bit like Frankenstein's monster being called Frankenstein.
>>46903405
>There are other myths and legends of similar beings like our modern vampire that did die in the sun
Curious about those mythical beings, I thought spontaneous combustion on sunlight was just a movie vampire thing.
Also thought that nosferatu meant corpse, but that vampires were pretty much walking corpses in the past until Polidori. But I might be misremembering stuff.

>>46903145
>Nah keep going please
I don't intend to stop posting, I just realize a change is needed.
>I almost wrote a wall of text reply about how much i like the touhou concept of 'faith'
>and my theory on how it exists irl as well
>decided to not write anything yet since im a little drunk rn
Well I for one would love to read this!
>>46903405
>The original lore of vampires
From what I remember there's a lot of super weird vampire-esque creatures in the folklore of Balkans, I remember something that was a boneless living corpse able to somehow still move.
>Marisa, too?
Nooooooooooooo...
>Live and learn, friend.
Yeah but I had been bothered myself by it even before that was posted so acknowledging and apologizing was the right thing to do.
>opportunity to post whatever they wish to contribute
Yeah true, but not everyone is so verbose is willing to talk or might get discouraged if things go to a certain direction.

I really would love to hear more about others experiences since there are way more people who have developed some kind of spiritual interest or had some sort of spiritual experiences related to Touhou.
>Just glad somebody with a similar mindset is around still
Very much the same.
>I'll keep you updated on the 26th since you're going out of your way to do that for me
It's a week-long process I am undertaking. Hopefully you would start feeling some change during that time.

>>46802826
>Prayer? Meditation? Rituals? Spending time dedicating your mind wholly to the gods, often before their likeness. Often accompanied by feelings of ecstacy and connectedness. A daily ritual. Oh yeah, we got that. You know exactly what I'm talking about.
We make offerings to their idols too. The fact that we have a widespread design protocol and style for making them only adds to this.

>>46911100
Heh, fumos are really interesting. The way people take them around the get photographed, showing them the world, involving them in their daily lives, showing them love and care...it reminds me of an externalized version of this magical practice which I believe comes from tantra where you invite gods or spirits to see what you see, feel what you feel and then you do something as an offering. So perhaps the fumo owners are unknowingly (or knowingly) giving them various life experiences as offerings.

I've been reading on the more nuanced differences between Shinto and other animistic systems, and from a purist Shinto POV worshipping a fumo would be problematic because that would mean the fumo itself is a kami, which...then again, considering the idea of tsukumogami, a well-beloved 100 year old fumo would...become a kami in itself?

Anyway, apparently it's the ofuda given by sanctioned Shinto priests that carry the kami from shrines to the home shrines. The idea of "downloading" a kami into a piece paper is absolutely fascinating in itself, but that's an aside. It would appear that there are some people who are kind of blending more traditional forms of Shinto with whatever it is that people do with fumos. Picture is very much related. When I first saw it I didn't quite understand, but that's an ofuda, I presume from a Haniyasujin shrine, and a fumo of Haniyasujin's newest iteration.

When doing some research on the Hakuba situation I stumbled upon claims that the Suwa shrine now gives "charms" to Kanako and Suwako. I don't know if they mean like real ofuda or something else, but if they really give ofuda of those two, then they are...real kami by the flattest possible definition. Which is certainly food for thought.

>>46912655
>Suwa shrine now gives "charms" to Kanako and Suwako
Why does that disturb me?

>>46912655
>>46912779
Ah, but that's the thing-the Shinto priests of the Moriya shrine, as well as a multitude of others around the country and the world, believe that the Kami and Youkai (really anything of the more spiritual nature) change with the times to match a form best suited for interacting with their surroundings, much like how we grow and change. In essence, Kanako and Suwako are both aspects/forms of the original Kami that you know of residing in this world's shrines. And Okina is literally Matarajin. And so on.
That goes for all the different "myths", legends, etc., that we find in other media with real world origin. (Like the Fate series I was speaking about above somewhere)

And the unique thing about it all, is that given enough time, belief, and favorable conditions, any thing, any one, or any concept can technically become a Kami or Youkai. So yes, that antique you picked up that's at the hundred year mark can become one, the fumo you give love and affection to after "a hundred"* years, and even your favorite anime characters if they have enough oomph behind them can. There is even evidence of this with sightings of Constantine by both the author and his fans, and even Conan the Barbarian showed up in the room and threatened his author to finish his series or else, then disappeared, only to come back for a few days in a row until Conan himself was satisfied. Praise Crom, right?

And this also means that the real lady that Sanae is based off of, who really does exist in our side of the world, can eventually meet the criteria of becoming a living Kami just like Sanae (or already is, if the "she's got the sister the world forgot about" story from that one fan adaptation has any truth to it. I recommend looking it up, as it gives good insight into how the spiritual side likes to hide in a sort of "sideways" sense in tandem to our world)

*"a hundred years" isn't a technicality, but merely the usual ambiguous Japanese phrasing that translates to "a really long fucking time". This can be in one person's lifetime, and can be any number of years if the emotional charge is met for the Tsukumogami to emerge, though a standard 80-100 years is the "norm".

See it! Hear it! Speak of it!

So, I've been watching Star Wars for the first time, and its interesting how similar "The Force" is to Reimu's power.

>>46912891
The 3 mystic apes? Okina?

>>46912874
>There is even evidence of this with sightings of Constantine by both the author and his fans, and even Conan the Barbarian showed up in the room and threatened his author to finish his series or else, then disappeared, only to come back for a few days in a row until Conan himself was satisfied. Praise Crom, right?
First I hear of this, qrd?

>>46913736
QRD is literally just that. People have sightings or actual encounters with these "fictional" characters, ranging for many, many decades. It goes back to the sightings of monsters and gods of our ancestors, but these are just the modern interpretations of that experience. Just like my run-in with Sakuya, Mamizou, and all the rest, both physical and mental space, and the ones that others have seen, etc.
John Constantine shows up to people, even talks to some, and has his own sightings page on the site.
Conan the Barbarian showed up to the author and threatened him with an axe.
There have been sightings of The Shadow protagonist, Slenderman to a woman who had no idea what it was, sightings of the MIB, and on and on.

There are so many thoughts and theories on what it is or could be, from psychotic episodes and mass hallucinations, to the physical embodiment of egregores, tulpas, sightings of gods and monsters that exist separately, to the idea of parallel dimensions or universes and how we create reality.

The short of it is: "I don't know what happened, but character from xyz was right there and now they're gone! You gotta believe me!".(just like that one Anon was complaining about with me up above somewhere)

Somewhere along the line, we stopped calling it sightings of gods and forgot about them, and now "they're in Gensokyo". Like the plot from the Urban Legends and the human faced dog sightings.

>>46914802
Its something deeper than what most people think.

>>46912779
Why does it indeed? I mean, there's a lot of things in religions and belief systems outside of monotheistic systems that can feel a bit uncanny. Deities changing names, genders, having different kinds of manifestations - old manifestations, new manifestations, male manifestations, female manifestations... It's all very fascinating and challenging to people from monotheistic cultural background.

Maybe you've seen them only as fiction, but if they are indeed giving out ofuda of these deities, it suddenly means that they've passed out of fantasy and back into our world. That's indeed quite strange.

Ultimately, only you know why it's disturbing. For me, the idea just reinforces my belief in the reality of the kami, or perhaps more accurately what get called kami in Japan.
>>46912874
>change with the times to match a form best suited for interacting with their surroundings
This is also the essence of the ultraterrestial hypothesis. Very curious how people from such different times, such different places arrive at so similar ideas.
>In essence, Kanako and Suwako are both aspects/forms of the original Kami
Considering how in the very distant past kami were not thought to be anthropomorphic, it might be an illuminating experience to try to see past their human-like presentation. Respectfully and with readiness to learn, of course.
>any thing, any one, or any concept can technically become a Kami or Youkai
That's one of the most fascinating concepts in Shinto. I remember reading how when the industrial revolution kicked off in Japan they started believing - or perhaps made contact with - a "kami of poverty". For a less terrifying but interesting detail, there is a Shinto shrine in Hawaii that enshrines not only the type of figures one would expect, but also George Washington and Abraham Lincoln as kami!!
>even your favorite anime characters if they have enough oomph behind them
Makes me think of Lain and how there are people claiming entity contact experiences with her.
>that one fan adaptation
...name? Link?
>>46912913
Very well intuited! And it loops straight back to the topic at hand! The Force draws greatly from this idea that good enough meditators will basicaly develop superpowers that is found in a lot of traditions of Asian origin. As far as I know, this idea crops up in Hinduism, Buddhism and Taoism, the ground zero for it probably being tantra.

The original Star Wars movies drew a lot from Akira Kurosawa films. I don't know if Lucas had a broader interest in esoteric practices of Asian origin, or if it was just cultural osmosis.

Reimu's ability to "float over life", using effortless action to solve problems, but occasionally losing her way and therefore her powers due to selfish motives is a profoundly Taoist idea. The ying-yang (symbol of Taoist origin) orbs have been staring at us since the first game. His later, really weird, conspiratorial depiction of Taoism might have been an attempt to resolve some realization that he had been putting Taoist ideas and symbolism into his games all along...or if it was intentional from the get go, a strange commentary on how Taoism has made it's way into almost every country of East Asia via the various historical practical crafts associated with it.

Or if it has all been given to him by outside forces, at least to some extent, perhaps there is some Taoist influence lurking at the heart of Hakuba. Is it something more visible, or something more forgotten or hidden?

Whatever the case, you have quite sharp instincts for things like this.Use them.

>>46916980
Episode 2 of the Hifuu Club animation goes over the Moriya/Moreya thing in relation to how Gensokyo works for those that slip over to that side, and from the perspective of those of us that remain on this side. It's very sad, in a way.

Also, pic related:

(Hakuba is part of the hoped-for return trip)

>>46916903
What's your take on the matter, then? If you feel like this is the place to share it, that is.
>>46917106
Thank you, that sounds very fascinating. Checking that out shall go into my ever expanding list of activities to do...

Speaking of activities, I have started putting together some sort of resource that would introduce and sum up central ideas of the religions featured in the Touhou media and some resources for learning more about them plus some general resources for academic study of religion & esotericism. No promises regarding the quality or completion date of this project.

>>46903405
>>46903145
Follow up to earlier post

First some briefing before i talk about 'faith' irl:
So in touhou the source of the power of gods and yokai seems to be faith or fear respectively. One theory for the reason behind the creation of gensokyo is that a sort of natural habitat for both can exist, with the human village for example being a good source of respect and fear for both beings. The most powerful entities in gensokyo also seem to be gods or yokai with worshippers outside gensokyo. This seems completely unrelated to our reality at first glance, but if this is viewed through the philosophical theory of the 'god of the gaps' then it starts getting interesting. The theory is that as humans started observing the world and explaining it we first believed in a multitude of gods that explained each natural phenomena, and as we started better understanding those phenomena we started assigning faith to gods that were further and further from the material world and existed almost or completely in a different spiritual plane. This was because we could explain the things that the gods used to govern in the material world with laws that were more consistent. The scientific method is after all just an agreement to seek the most consistent formula for describing material existence, and nothing is as inconsistent as a free will. This is why some modern scientific theories were very hard to accept when introduced in the 19th and 20th century. For example quantum mechanics asserts a certain fundamental uncertainty in the universe, and asserts that that uncertainty is tied to the interactions of the subject. This combined with relativity allowing multiple contradicting viewpoints to be subjectively correct seemed to contradict the rationality of the scientific method. A 3 meter ladder traveling close to c could fit inside a 2 meter long hallway from a bystanders perspective, but if you were riding the ladder the hallway would just stretch to 3 meters. ZUN was definitely referencing this with Yukari as quantum physics has been used in a lot of occult theories.

Now this is all fine and dandy, a tree might be struck by lightning, and even if from a humans perspective it was a temper tantrum from zeus that burned the tree, from the trees perspective it doesn't matter, and the outcome is the same. The problem arises when this isn't the case. Lets make an assumption that being able to imagine how a broken clock should work increases the likelihood of you being able to repair it. This seems completely logical and self explanatory, but opens up a lot of questions if true. Let's say then that if a politician can imagine a peaceful future for their country then the likelihood of peace in the future increases, same the other way, if someone believes they will get in a fight the likelihood of a fight increases. This all seems pretty self explanatory. And of course sometimes it works in reverse too. Simply being able to think of something seems to manipulate the probability of it's existence, in relation to how improbable the existence of that thing is in a vacuum. Now it gets pretty interesting if you consider faith in gods and spirits. Thinking about gods or praying to them manipulates the probability of their existence by some amount. And probability theory knows no impossible things, there is no zero, though we consider things below some point to be impossible. So in a weird way thinking of gods really does seem to empower them, though it is uncertain if the chance of their existence could ever become so high to actually matter. Though as i mentioned earlier there is no need for universal events, if they can be locally true. The universal probability of a miracle can be near zero, but locally it might become more likely, if the result of that miracle is still 'plausible' to an outside observer it doesn't really matter what happened. Paranormal events being explained by unlikely coincidences later does not necessarily mean they didn't happen for the initial observer.

This is just a surface level touch into the subject and i feel like if i write any more this will seem like a schizophrenics word pasta. The more you look into this the more some characters like Yukari and Okina being the sages of gensokyo start making sense. I wholeheartedly support the guys worshipping 2hu:s since it would be pretty lit to revive some dead gods.

>>46912874
This seems to be almost exactly what i'm talking about :D

gayest thread on /jp/

>>46917725
So you, the Okina poster, and myself all seem to share the same or similar ways of viewing this world and how it operates. I think people like us are the Proto-Hifuu that the girls in the series use as stepping stones to get up to hijinks and kick over statues in the future.

>>46917954
Shun the nonbelievers.
Shun, I say.
Shun.

>>46917725
Very, very interesting stuff! You've obviously thought a lot about these things.
>god of the gaps
This is an interesting idea with some kernel of truth to it, but humans have been placing deities in faraway, spiritual, "other" realms far before the birth of the scientific method though.
>multiple contradicting viewpoints to be subjectively correct seemed to contradict the rationality of the scientific method
I don't have a background in the sciences and sometimes I forget how very strange they get and very fast. It's also fascinating how on the fringes it just turns straight up into esotericism again. I'm thinking mostly about panpsychism and the various ideas of nonlocal consciousness.
>quantum physics has been used in a lot of occult theories
I'm a bit mixed about this myself, mostly because I think we don't have nowhere near the whole picture. But it can be useful and interesting in trying to conceptualize this stuff in the very least.
>The problem arises when this isn't the case
>being able to imagine how a broken clock should work increases the likelihood of you being able to repair it
>if a politician can imagine a peaceful future
Careful anon, you might start thinking about what is the true extent of which outcomes we can impact by throughly grasping how they operate and making a full-spectrum effort to get a favorable outcome!!
> Simply being able to think of something seems to manipulate the probability of it's existence
Tangentialy related, but something probably of great interest to you: are you aware that there are extremely rigorous studies that seem to imply that some kind of minor retrocausal effects exist and have a small, but measurable impact? So it's even better (worse?) we can possibly impact near future events by making an effort that persists into the further future. This leaves us with the uncomfortable responsibility of vigorously gardening our thoughts and directing our efforts.
>Thinking about gods or praying to them manipulates the probability of their existence by some amount.
That's a very interesting way to put. I personally see them, something like we perceive as gods and spirits at the very least, really being out there whether we believe in them or not, but that there is some process of co-mingling, some kind of exchange, harmonization, whatever the metaphor may be where our belief in them strenghtens them.
>Paranormal events being explained by unlikely coincidences
The paranormal also operates via the law of the least resistance. There's also genuine differences in between how sensitive people are to these things and how capable they are perceiving them. There have been many anomalous encounters where the different witnesses saw different things, or only some saw anything while others perhaps just felt really weird, maybe heard a buzzing noise or had a more internal experience, like sudden transfer of information into them.
>if i write any more this will seem like a schizophrenics word pasta
Well I would very much like to read more and I think me and eclipseanon have posted enough stuff that sounds completely insane to some so who knows, maybe you will sound completely sane and lucid compared to us.
>Yukari and Okina being the sages of gensokyo start making sense
Absolutely. With Okina, it's easy to forget, but she has been in different forms been worshipped in three different religions. Even if I put my personal experiences aside, just thinking about it, such a widely worshipped deity must be very powerful, torching of the Mt. Hiei temple complex be damned.
>it would be pretty lit to revive some dead gods
They're not dead to me in the slightest though. I'm not sure if they can even wholly die. Maybe complete destruction of Earth would kill them too.
>>46917954
Oh anon...I assure that any warm feelings the anons in this thread have expressed towards each other are just wholesome agape and not some homosexual eros.
>>46918070
>similar ways of viewing this world and how it operates
Similar, but I do feel there are crucial differences too. I for example do seem to view them as being separate from humans (what are humans anyway though?) and not being conjured forth by us. But I don't know enough to make a definitive judgement. I just can't deny them anymore. What matters is that I keep the makeshift kamidana they accepted stocked and I make my best effort to learn from them and to live a wholesome life that puts the things they give to me also to the use of others. The exact metaphysics of it all might be genuinely incomprehensible to humans. Not that it isn't fun to think about and I strongly feel that they desire to be witnessed in the fullest possible extent that is possible for humans.

>>46917954
Yeah, now that you're here.

>>46919613
>>46918070
Thanks for the positivity i guess i will elaborate a bit more.
>humans have been placing deities in faraway, spiritual, "other" realms far before the birth of the scientific method
Yes, the renaissance and enlightenment in the 15th-18th century just accelerated the process of cornering the divine and supernatural due to a more dominant and consistent theory, leading to Nietzsche claiming that we had killed god (he talked about the christian god but it applies to all others) and that god no longer had a place in the material world, as we could explain it much better with science. This isn't a bad thing from my perspective, as learning more about the world gives humanity more sovereignty over itself, but it also doesn't mean that those gods didn't ever exist, it just seems that way from our perspective as we have made models of understanding that surpass those gods. For example there is no reason to suspect that two laws of physics with completely different systems couldn't both be true at the same time, it is just convention to have one dominant theory. In mathematics you can tweak functions and make completely new ones that give identical results, this should be the case in the real world as well. It doesn't really matter to the universe if a phenomena was caused by a god, a scientific law or anything else. What matters is that the observations of that phenomena are locally consistent. And when i say the gods are dead i mean more that they are not able to interact with the material world as they have been banished to the spiritual realm or gensokyo in the touhou universe, maybe a better word would have been 'inactive'.
>gods and spirits at the very least, really being out there whether we believe in them or not
I mean as long as you can think of something it exists in Plato's world of ideas. I would contrast that with the spiritual world, as the world of ideas contains the perfected form of everything from inanimate objects to humans and gods, so like a soul. This is also to say that without their 'soul' even inanimate objects lose their meaning. A tree after all is just 99.9999999% empty space and a few particles of elements in there. If you lose all the meanings created by humans the world looks like a sea of different densities of matter and energy. If you never saw a hammer and didn't know how to use it it would be just a lump of metal (assuming you had a definition for metal). The hammer doesn't exist if it cannot be imagined to be used as a hammer, but the constituent parts will always be there, ready to be imagined as a hammer. The spiritual world is disconnected and unchanging without the material, and the material world is undefined and meaningless without the spiritual (as in the world of ideas).

I will now try to give an example of a modern day 'god' and how they exist in the real world. This is an idea i borrowed from Yuval Noah Harari's book "Sapiens: A Brief History of Humankind". In the book Harari talks a lot about how similar modern day ideologies and other widely accepted forms of thought are to religions. I will not go too deep on this but the book is worth a read. A good example for a modern day 'god' is the free market and economics. They exist completely independent of the material world, but have a huge amount of power over it. Nobody questions how real money is, even though it's just an agreement on a common denominator for value. What these gods lack is personification, very few people believe in a personified representation of economics, but if they did, nothing would really change except we might see more appearances of this personification.

I hope that it is clear when i talk about the material real and the immaterial real as those are two different concepts. Anything that can be imagined to a certain accuracy becomes real in the immaterial world of ideas, it gains a perfected form, which can then be assigned into a material substitute. We as humans are also material substitutes possessed by an idea/soul (that is subjective to the observer, you are not the same person to yourself as an outside observer) as it is impossible to fundamentally create a border between the material body and the outer world. For example every atom in the human body gets replaced around every 5 years, but our experience of reality is continuous. The ship of Theseus is not the sum of its parts, but the idea of the ship, though the parts contribute and change that idea over time. This has become a huge wall of text and i think i should stop here for now. Hoping this thread doesn't die :)

>>46922090
Those are some very interesting ideas you got there. I'm glad you've brought your views here. I will go over some points later when I get back home. I'm not gonna try to make a proper reply on the mobile.

Unironically the most interesting thread in the catalog right now, and one that has a mix of meaningful insight, new concepts and ideas/views i already had in some way or another.

While i need time to organize my thoughts and contribute to it in a meaningful way, i'm watching this closely with great attention.

Though to add my own two cents, i've already had some VERY interesting experiences with Nue during a very high dose LSD trip, about the nature of identity, mysteries and the unknowable, and the dance between keeping an alluring mystique from said mystery, and trying to uncover it, usually in crude, rude way, when you add definitions to the undefined, shape the shapeless, and so on, in an attempt to make it more palatable to your OWN views.

>>46927305
But to elaborate a little more, Touhou stuff is GREAT for "personifying" in the greek sense of the word, when you give a face, shape and personality to a concept, you can almost talk to it, and get some surprising amount of insight or even "empathy" for whatever it is you're trying to deal with, even if it seems like lunacy to an outside observer, you'd be surprised at the kind of places these things can bring you.

>>46927305
More like the most interesting thread on the site period. Anons are quite close to something.

>>46927305
>LSD
Every word uttered by a poster is immedately invalidated the second they admit to being a druggie.

>>46929075
You should let go of stigma that shut you out from worthwhile ideas. It's well-established that psychedelics can help clarify thoughts and access the subconscious, even if you deny the metaphysical aspect to things. Mushroom trips have been the source of what we call divine visions since antiquity; and whether that lends or detracts credibility in your eyes, you have to admit the impact they've had on our culture - YOUR culture - you.

>>46927305
>i've already had some VERY interesting experiences with Nue during a very high dose LSD trip
If you're alright sharing, I'd love to hear more.

>crudely uncovering, defining, personifying
There's no getting around the fuzziness (to borrow a mathematical term) of defininions, analogies, words, and thoughts. I think the best thing we can do is keep these limitations in mind, pursue the ideas we manage to string together as far as the accumulated error will allow, and renormalize/reconnect with observed reality as often as possible.

>organize my thoughts
Sometimes trying to connect thoughts into what looks to our Western rationalist minds like a coherent thesis can miss the point, add or remove detail, and generally contort the ethereal thing into a rigid form that doesn't suit it. Sometimes it's better to just let fly with raw ideas and see what other people can make of them.

I have these photos which I think are of Gensokyo or some space time anomaly.
One is of sheep on a mountain, the camera is about 30 feet away, there’s a tree near the sheep. The other is a picture of a village nested in between mountains from the mountainside. There’s another photo of the sheep but i forget how it’s structured.
They were posted in a /jp/ thread at the end with no context and I found them while browsing waruso, you probably can too.
They’re on my old phone which seems to not want to charge, I’ll get it fixed eventually and when I do I’ll post them.

>>46898156
>What do you mean by steps of the creative process?
The usual approach of estimating the direction you want to take with an idea, gathering relevant information, establishing potential outcomes, picking one of them, refining your choice, and so on. As opposed to having a sudden revelation and thinking "wow, this just works".
>This could have something to do with some hormonal activity or simply oxygenation of the blood...I find myself thinking (or drifting into memories) much better when excercising.
What's interesting about exercise is that while it's said to stimulate the brain's blood flow, it also doesn't require much of one's mental capacity, so it simply makes sense that one's imagination would take over when there is a predisposition to use it.
>For what's it worth, you don't seem like a bad anon at all.
Appreciate it, but it's less about me being 'bad' and more about certain past experiences (unrelated to the topic at hand) and some aspects of my present reality weighing heavily on my mind *and* body. It sucks, but I'm trying to get over it.
>Or then you are scrying into Genskyo for real hehe.
Now *that* would be silly, right? Unless...
>Maybe a tiny bit? I've actually tried intentionally visualizing stuff more often recently, it's not great unless it involves memories or them, but it might be a bit better.
That's great to hear. Visualization is essential for many types of meditation, and this probably goes for most things supernatural, too.
>I've already started, though it was more that I felt I was compelled to do so (Keiki's influence) and less as a method to improve visualizations skills.
Like someone once said, all roads lead to Gensokyo. Sorry for taking this long to reply, by the way.
>>46922090
This and much of what was mentioned in this thread lines up with how ZUN talks about faith shifting to brands and the like. He also said that gods who wish to regain human faith should try a more amicable approach. Pretty straightforward for a religious statement coming from a Japanese man.

>>46922090
>This isn't a bad thing from my perspective, as learning more about the world gives humanity more sovereignty over itsel
It certainly hasn't been a bad thing from the perspective of a great many deities either! Consider how many gods of learning there are, and how in some cultures they have also been gods of magic.
>In mathematics you can tweak functions and make completely new ones that give identical results, this should be the case in the real world as we
Mathematics is something I know very little about. This is really fascinating!
>they are not able to interact with the material world
Or then they have to operate via paths of least resistance in a world that is pushing against them...
>maybe a better word would have been 'inactive'
...to all but those who reach out to them, but I get it.
>I mean as long as you can think of something it exists in Plato's world of ideas.
Oh? Do we have a Neoplatonist among us?
>A tree after all is just 99.9999999% empty space and a few particles of elements in there. If you lose all the meanings created by humans the world looks like a sea of different densities of matter and energy
This line of thinking is very interesting to contrast to some of the Buddhist materials I have been presented with. They would probably say that there is nothing but that sea of different densities of matter and energy. Do they try to look past even the world of ideas or are these two views in conflict, I don't know, but it's interesting to think about.
>how similar modern day ideologies and other widely accepted forms of thought are to religions
Yeah, there indeed are similarities, especially considering how spiritually hollowed out a lot of religions have become, particularly the monotheistic ones.
>Nobody questions how real money is, even though it's just an agreement on a common denominator for value
I had a really fascinating experience this past week where I was trying to get more in touch with Chimata-sama. Money simultaneously became much more real (I used cash for 90% of my purchses) and at the same time it melted into this abstraction, it's just tokens facilitating exchanges along these immensively vast networks of (both very literal and metaphoric!) energetic processes.
>What these gods lack is personification, very few people believe in a personified representation of economics
Have you seen the American Gods TV show? They don't quite have a "god of economics" but there are some very modern gods there.
>humans are also material substitutes possessed by an idea/soul
What do you think of the various ideas about there being some kind of small-s self and capital S higher Self?
>The ship of Theseus is not the sum of its parts, but the idea of the ship, though the parts contribute and change that idea over time
Ah, that's a classic, and I think the most concise solution to this I've seen so far.
>This has become a huge wall of text and i think i should stop here for now.
Well do post more, this is fascinating stuff!
>>46927305
>VERY interesting experiences with Nue
Oh, she is an EXTREMELY interesting entity. I would at this point probably be a bit scared to deal with her though. But discovering her in the game was one of the turning points for me starting to see the more esoteric aspects of Touhou. What do you mean she can "make things unknown"? This is straight out of the ultraterrestial hypothesis?? Was there a Japanese translation of it? Did ZUN read it? Did he come up with the exact same basic idea by himself!? What do you mean "Heian Alien", do you mean she, and by implication, the phenomena has been around for a very, very long time??
>about the nature of identity, mysteries and the unknowable, and the dance between
That's something I would very much like to read more about.
>an attempt to make it more palatable to your OWN views
I'm also very curious about this aspect. My own experience is less about making things palatable, more about making things just...understandable without it being completely overwhelming or a total garbled mess.
>>46927357
>Touhou stuff is GREAT for "personifying"
Yes, 100%, absolutely.
>you can almost talk to it
I myself would drop the "almost"
>get some surprising amount of insight
Yes!!
>or even "empathy"
Yes. And if you are able to feel it for them, they will share more of themselves. I don't care if others think I'm insane, I have felt Okina-sama sharing her anger and grief at the destruction of the Mt. Hiei temple complex, Chimata-sama sharing her anxiety at being forced to change and Keiki-sama sharing her frustration and sadness at humans abusing her gifts and how humanity's destructive emotions and actions feed back into her and change her.

I have also started feeling an unprecedented amount of empathy towards nature. I feel genuinely upset when I see trash in parks and forests and have resolved to do something about it myself.

>>46928649
I'm reall happy how this thread has turned out in the end. I don't know about being close, but there certainly are a lot of interesting ideas here. This thread has made me also think how "magical" imageboards are in a sense. You really get back what you put in here, with the occasional surprising results and few "little nasties" heckling at you.
>>46929075
I think we should judge ideas on their own merits and not the point of origin. Yes, there are people who abuse psychedelics and are completely scrambled. But the pursuit of various altered states of consciousness has been part of various spiritual traditions since the beginning. From psychoactive substances to meditation, intense prayer, fasting, feats of extreme endurance, pursuit of ecstatic states via dance, chanting, drumming...it serves both a spiritual function but also one that changes your state of mind.

I would also like to remind you that to outside observers, and to very, very many in the fandom, we are completely deranged, lunatic, insane. Touhou is that too hard cute girl shooter game made by a drunkard that has a lot of weird hentai doujins produced by it. This is not something you are supposed to take this seriously. You are not supposed to derive any sort of insight here.

Even more spiritualy inclined outsiders would find this most likely extremely baffling. You're supposed to get this type of insight only from (insert religion/school of magic mysticism/lineage of magic here)!

We can, and we have to, do better than that here.
>>46929374
>You should let go of stigma that shut you out from worthwhile ideas
Essentially this.
>>46929541
> I think the best thing we can do is keep these limitations in mind
Yes. Somewhere along the line I was trying to make this kind of point. This phenomena is going to "unpack" itself to everyone differently depending on their readiness, capabilities, life experiences etc...
>Sometimes trying to connect thoughts into what looks to our Western rationalist minds like a coherent thesis can miss the point
Yeah true. There's some stuff I have experienced that I haven't talked about, mostly because at the time I didn't trust my experience, couldn't make sense of it, felt that I've already shared too much etc. But some of it has started to later make sense, partly because of stuff posted here.

My own stuff aside, sensemaking process doesn't have to be a lonely one. Of course there will be the occasional people calling you a schizo or whatever, but there's an astonishing amount of anons here who seem to get it and are willing to leand their help at making sense of things.
>>46929600
That's interesting. Why do you think those photos are anomalous? Would love to see them if you can find them.
>>46931097
>refining your choice, and so on
>As opposed to having a sudden revelation
I understand.
>makes sense that one's imagination would take over when there is a predisposition to use it
Yeah that's probably very true.
>It sucks, but I'm trying to get over it
I really hope your situation resolves.
>Now *that* would be silly, right?
Hehe.
>Visualization is essential for many types of meditation
>this probably goes for most things supernatural
Well, yes, some probably could read between the lines, but I have restarted magical practice and part of that is indeed meditation, plus you have to visualize things for the rituals too. It's incredibly hard, and it's probably not surprising that the most vivid imagery I have been able to conjure are related to the Big Four.
>ZUN talks about faith shifting to brands and the like
With absolutely terrible results, it's insane how profoundly unhappy people are among such unfathomable material wealth, access to information, means to fix medical problems...not that old timey religion or the past was perfect, but we really have gone forward so, so, so little in the end when it comes to things that really matter...
>gods who wish to regain human faith should try a more amicable approach
Oh ZUN, as if you weren't doing it for them...

>>46931526
>I would also like to remind you that to outside observers, and to very, very many in the fandom, we are completely deranged, lunatic, insane. Touhou is that too hard cute girl shooter game made by a drunkard that has a lot of weird hentai doujins produced by it. This is not something you are supposed to take this seriously. You are not supposed to derive any sort of insight here.
It goes without saying that spirituality isn't necessarily meant to be broadcast, and that yours isn't any less genuine if you choose to keep it to yourself. Threads where several like-minded individuals exchange their insights are a valid exception, but you can't go wrong with reading the room before hastily revealing your power-level to those who could never relate to it. This world can be unforgiving to those who deviate from the norm, after all.

>>46929541
While most of it is too personal to really go into detail, the main gist of it was a
"dialogue" of sorts, veering towards the abstract but with the occasional word.

It was about the nature of the undefined and unknowable, though it was heavily about a sense of "identity" as well, with Nue, what you see is what you get, in a sense, being undefined is also being full of potential, since it can mean ANYTHING until it gets "locked down" into a shape / definition, but what i understood the most can be summarized as "don't hold so heavily into your own pre-defined sense of identity, be flexible and adaptable with the shape your "vessel" which holds it, if your ego is a gas, then it expands to take the shape of whatever it's holding it in, so use it as a tool / weapon, change it into something that has that POTENTIAL for whatever goal you're trying to achieve.

>>>46929541
She definitely is, also rather scary, but i think i've been able to peek into a more "friendly" side of it, because i understood the "etiquette" and how to interact with such a thing in a playful yet respectful way, you'd be surprised at how even abstract concepts and things can become rather accommodating once you're aligned to them, IRL included, but the "etiquette" can be summarized as as "Enjoy the mysteries, speculate, but don't try to crudely peel them away like the skin of an onion and just coldly quantify and catalog everything in a clinical manner, it's rude, rather let them reveal themselves to you in the right time."

Just finished getting caught up with this thread (from the very beginning, mind you) and figured I may as well ask the anons active here more concisely what you all think of approaching the mystical with a more scientific mindset? Not in the sense of rationalizing all of it away as purely psychological, but in terms of analyzing it in such a way as to try and get a better understanding of the underlying rules that operate these things.

I've had a few experiences myself that would be considered paranormal, and I suppose if there's any interest I may share those as well, but largely what's piqued by interest in this sort of discourse recently was learning about Jerry Marzinski's studies about actual schizophrenics and how their 'hallucinations' can actually be affected by the thoughts of people nearby. I've tried some similar mental exercises and it has been alarmingly effective.

>>46933711
Glad to have you here.

If you're speaking of this from the scientific method, such as "x causes y, but only if a does b.", then I think it's more on the limitations of how your question is worded, and you're trying to approach this from the aspect that the "other" has certain rules and logic it follows, and you're trying to figure out what the rules are. If that is the case, then you come to this from a good angle-the joke of "creature killed your whole family because you didn't place a walnut on the greenest leaf from the pine tree in the western-most corner of your room on the day of the wombat of the long-extict flumbo calendar", while a flanderized joke, does hold a basis of "They have rules that may not make sense to you, but follow them for best results". (Mainly of the "fairy" type of creature, but semantics)

And if you approach this from the aspect of the actual scientific "an action must be observed to be properly studied and recorded, while following a set of rules and logic that follow the functioning of our own, known world", then while that WILL get you to a destination or end result that can work for you, the end result will be lacking and missing important aspects of the original scenario; sort of the "cut off your nose to spite your face" thing. And at some point with messing with all of this, you'll come back around full circle to "wait a minute, magic actually does exist?!" mindset. Just look at the quantum shenanigans.

But with that said, there's nothing wrong with it at all, and it will ultimately prove to be something you realize you don't care for and you'll move on to other things, or you'll gain a deeper and more inciteful understanding of WHY and HOW they work. Patchouli says it best, even though she's but the one that said it first because Zun made it up, but "magic and science are the same". They both act as ways for us to comprehend the existence of us and around us, and only in the modern day have we drawn a distinction between the two so fully that it has brought upon the very things we discuss here about a separation of fantasy and the mundane.

As for the schizophrenia topic, one thing I remember reading about was that it's only in the Western world that the "voices" manifest as harmful, while in places like certain parts of Africa, where ancestor worship is still an underlying basis of society, do the "voices" manifest as helpful guidance from deceased family members. The same scenario can be seen in the "helpful stranger" that seems to happen in life or death situations, where people report "there was another person that helped me out of the spot, but then they disappeared on me" once they are no longer in mortal danger.

>>46933892
>They have rules that may not make sense to you, but follow them for best results
Well yes, though I would personally call that more 'etiquette' on a case-by-case basis than underlying laws.
>you'll come back around full circle to "wait a minute, magic actually does exist?!" mindset.
I've already crossed that point a while back, my interest largely comes from understanding the mechanisms behind it all.
>Patchouli says it best, even though she's but the one that said it first because Zun made it up, but "magic and science are the same".
Funny you should mention this, a large part of my interest in mysticism and the occult comes from Hermeticism, learning about the concept of "Prisca Theologia" and how ultimately science will irrevocably have its roots in spirituality.

On that note, Taoism interests me to a somewhat lesser extent, simply due to some of the parallels with Hermeticism. The seeming similarities between the Emerald Tablet and the Jade Books in Heaven I find to be of particular note. All that said though, my knowledge of Hermeticism is still fairly novice to the best of my awareness. Not much more versed with it than, say, Byakuren is with Buddhism.

>>46933892
And I seem to have a few typos there, but I'm doing this from my phone at the moment so forgive me.

Another thing to bring up is the thought process on "alien abductions". Every single Christian that claims to have had encounters with these things talk about how they started praying for Jesus or God to help them, and the aliens recoiled in some manner and they got back safe. But while looking through this, the exact same thing happens to members of other religions that call upon their gods and holy figures-the menace retreats. Now, I bring this up to relate to the idea of the egregore, tulpa, schizo manifestations you speaking of in your post, etc., in that the true underlying common factor is that the HUMAN is the one generating power that stops these things, whatever they may be. That is to say, whether the human is the one generating the actual "power", or the human is acting as a channel device for the higher up to work through, is a major point of argument and conjecture. With that said, however, another thing is brought to mind about how the Warhammer 40k universe seems to have a quasi-similar aspect to it in how human (and ork) belief functions, and that they can influence, manifest, and outright change the very fabric of existence based solely on how much power they put behind their actions. And this ultimately circles right back around to the real world view of belief having power, and the actual studies that have been done that show that human prayer really does generate some type of verifiable, recorded "energy".

Now what could this all mean in the long run? It's all true, and nothing makes sense until it does, but don't look too deep into it or you'll end up with a scenario like the Nue poster's experience.

>>46934030
Honestly, you and I seem to be in the same situation on this, and I was just saying what I did as a more generalized group of statements for a wider "audience" since I didn't know your personal circumstances, but I agree.
I went through a Hermeticism and alchemy stage when younger, though I haven't read the Prisca Theologia yet. I've covered the emerald tablets and the chemical wedding, that sort of thing. Though once you find the "as above, so below" you see it in everything. And I mean everything.

>>46934155
>I haven't read the Prisca Theologia yet.
Not a book, a concept. The idea that there is one 'root religion' that all modern spirituality branched out from, parallels in what should seem to be religions isolated from one another were the main thing that drew my attention to it.
>Though once you find the "as above, so below" you see it in everything.
The Greeks called it the macrocosm and the microcosm in a similar sense, yeah. I might take a bit more of a material analysis to it than others, but all the same.
>>46934039
>another thing is brought to mind about how the Warhammer 40k universe seems to have a quasi-similar aspect to it
Touhou itself draws heavily from SMT as was acknowledged earlier, and even now the "Mental Layer" aspects of it still heavily parallel the MegaTen franchise, how ultimately said Mental Layer has its foundations in the physical, in human thought. Similarly, Carl Jung's ideas of the Collective Unconsciousness seem to have heavy parallels too. While the lore of all three works proposes that such entities (like the ruinous powers, several of the heavenly kami, etc.) preceded humanity and the material world, everything else about their cosmologies suggests that the immaterial exists as something like a byproduct or aftereffect. Admittedly those exact words I feel diminish the significance, but I can't really call it a creation in the typical sense either, as it clearly was not knowingly and willingly fashioned, whether in the fictitious examples or whatever IRL equivalent there is.

>>46932001
Don't worry anon, I am neither that socially incompetent nor fanatic. You are absolutely right though. My point was going to be less about normies and more about the broader spiritual scene so to say, but I cropped it because the post got too long.
>>46932636
>being undefined is also being full of potential
Yes.
>change it into something that has that POTENTIAL for whatever goal you're trying to achieve
Yes! And here comes the necessity for guiding principles in this process. You don't want the end result to be the next Charles Manson or some dark sorceror of black machine monoliths. Our society at large and the planet itself can't take much more of such cases.
>Enjoy the mysteries
>don't try to crudely peel them away like the skin of an onion
>let them reveal themselves to you in the right time
I've had a very similar feeling about it all... I would have myself worded it perhaps along the lines of "you want to learn more from someone you deeply respect, you don't want to try to break into their house or stalk them" but you put it much better...
>>46933711
Congrats on slogging through this all, this thread is getting more info dense and longer than some actual works on esotericism and we have barely even gotten started.
>approaching the mystical with a more scientific mindset?
My take would be that I see it more as anthropology than science. We are dealing with unknown "individuals" and "cultures" who act in ways different from us, and there is a certain baseline level of caution and respect that is required for any venture that doesn't end with the "natives" getting angry. Even then, sometimes the "natives" will prank you. Sometimes you don't get it. It's uncomfortably subjective. Someone else at some other time and frame of reference will come to different conclusions...and yet...somehow, a pattern emerges, and sometimes even feed back to the "natives".

So I am not against scientific aproach to the mystical, I think it can be a valid addition to the toolset. There have been mystics involved with their craft in a very scientific way, and in turn the mysticism fed the science.

But ufology is emblematic of the potential problems. The phenomena changes, adapts, mocks and pranks the researchers. And since the field has a major connection to the paranoiac-security complex, you get statements like "this is not science, this is a military inteligence issue". And military inteligence is just a really nasty cousin of anthropology. And it might be the type of cousin that will generate enemies from where there once were none.
>I suppose if there's any interest I may share those as well
Please do.
>schizophrenics and how their 'hallucinations' can actually be affected by the thoughts of people nearby
Super fascinating! And of course a bit disheartening for those suffering from it, if they are in fact to some extent reading thoughts...
>>46933892
Very good post. Essential I'd say. When I say there is a baseline of respect and understanding that is required I mean stuff like this.
>only in the modern day have we drawn a distinction between the two
I often wonder what our culture would look like if we had never abandoned the Hermetic mindset where scientific pursuits were inseparably linked with spiritual pursuits.
>it's only in the Western world that the "voices" manifest as harmful
It's not quite as black and white IIRC, but hostile voices are common in the west and rarer elsewhere.
>>46934030
>'etiquette'
Very good term.
>Hermeticism
Wonderful. This was one of my lifelines to the esoteric during the time I tried not to believe in it, but still maintained some interest. I found it, still do, a very admirable pursuit.
>Taoism
>parallels with Hermeticism
You have to tell me more. I own a translation of Corpus Hermeticum. I remember there being some part about how "evil blossoms like an open wound" when some kind of natural cycle of change between the elements gets obstructed in it, and when I started reading on Taoism I was immediatedly reminded of it! It's so strange how two systems so culturaly and geographicaly far removed from each other share similarities...

Speaking of Taoism, I found this amazing thing staring the whole world right in the face on the Wikipedia page for Onbashira. I don't think anyone else will get as jolted by it, but Suwa having some possible connection to Taoist ideas is...extremely fascinating to say the least, and strenghtens my intuition about some things. Is this part of some hidden (esoteric!) Taoist influence in ZUN's work from the get go..???

>>46934039
>the menace retreats
I wonder if there's even been a case where some occultist gets abducted and they start doing the hexagram banishing or somesuch and the entities skedadle. Or don't occultists get abducted precisely because the banishment rituals are the first thing they get taught?
>Warhammer 40k universe
...takes it's ideas from plain fantasy Warhammer, which took it's magic from...real life chaos magic, which is...
>belief having power
exctly this.
>>46934155
>the chemical wedding
Extremely fascinating book, I didn't know what to make of it when I read it though. I did identify that it was absolutely chock full of alchemical symbolism though.
>"as above, so below"
Why is Chimata-sama's (almost, kind of) sprite doing the "as above, so below" gesture that the man in the Magician tarot is doing?

And since you made yourself known: I climbed the tallest hill (closest thing to a mountain here) in my area and offered a bottle of sake to Kanako-sama there and asked her to help you to keep your promise. The conditions were less than ideal as good weather had drawn in a lot of people there but I have reason to believe it worked.
>>46934221
>there is one 'root religion'
It sure does seem that humans somehow keep on stumbling upon similar ideas around the topic time after time...
>The Greeks called it the macrocosm and the microcosm in a similar sense
Honestly I am still quite foggy about it all. My interpretation has been that similar forces act both on the "internal" and "external world" and hence the internal world can affect the external world, and vice versa..?
>Touhou itself draws heavily from SMT
I know that SMT draws a lot from western esotericism and it may have been me who posted about it, but I don't know SMT in depth.
>suggests that the immaterial exists as something like a byproduct or aftereffect
My personal 100% vibes based thinking is that the immaterial existed far before humanity, that there were other forms of consciousness before us, but that the evolution of more inteligent animals like humans (and monkeys, cetaceans, certain birds, octopi, potentially even hybrid ecologies via mycelian networks) has somehow shaped and contributed to the immaterial.

>>46934326
Alright, well, in that case, I'll quickly go over the basics of them, from most to least easily rationalized away. Keep in mind that none of these are at all 2hu related unless you want to accuse a certain hag of being responsible for the last incident.

On three separate occasions I've survived situations that I'm pretty sure should've seriously injure or killed me by no merit of my own, with the third and most improbable having several factors, none the result of knowing action, that led into stopping me from driving through a steep mountain pass in a storm at night, with a fishtailing truck dolly.
Beyond that, there have been two occasions wherein a particular scene I had seen in a dream several months prior ended up happening IRL. The second occasion involved a person I had never met by the time the dream occurred.

The most inexplicable happens to be a time I was out on a late-night stroll, and on my way back ended up, I suppose you'd call it displaced. A block in the opposite direction of where I should have ended up if I overshot the path I took forward. Since I discussed it with a friend last night, I threw together an illustration for him that should hopefully articulate it better than words can.

>>46934039
>>46934221
>>46934458
>humans as the source
>primordial religion
This is where I've been looking as far as a basis for a rational/scientific understanding. Sort of an expansion of memetics to allow for highly ordered structures that are capable of some analogue of thought and consciousness. Though thinking of them as mere collections of ideas is like trying to understand psychology through chemistry.
It goes back to the idea of ever-increasing order. The story of our universe is the building of a towering pillar of recursive complexity: quantum strings give rise to quarks, then protons, atoms, molecules, organics, RNA, cells, colonies, organisms, brains, tribes, cultures. This tower stretches as far up and down as we've ever been able to see. There are probably more layers under the quantum layer that we can't even see. Similarly, there's absolutely no reason to think the upper limit has stopped or will stop at individual consciousness. If there's any reason we can't see higher than that, it's either because we refuse to or are mentally unable to.

So where do we go from here? The way I see it, first we accept that by looking up the tower with our limited human minds, we're trying to perform astronomy through a microscope. Then we ask: what can we learn? As it turns out, conceptually, a few useful things. I'll write up a longer post on this someday, but there are two basic realizations:
We have power over them the way a cell has power in a body. They need us to survive, and they only control us through signals that we have the power to respond or not respond to. Though, we may not always realize what is or isn't a signal.
They have power over us by the same analogy. By responding correctly, we become part of them, and receive all the benefits that entails. By acting like we're meant to act, we maintain a kind of spiritual homeostasis, and our mental machinery is kept fed and running smoothly.

>>46934617
There's a third realization that I think requires a bit of a leap of faith to internalize, but it's the most powerful one of all.
Because our consciousness interacts with reality through this mental machinery, by influencing that machinery, they have the power to literally alter reality. Call it mass hallucination if you want, but if everyone hallucinates it, then it IS real. And if you hallucinate everyone hallucinating it, that's the exact same thing.
They could be so much smarter and more complex than us, there's absolutely no reason they couldn't create a coherent reality that we could never see through, like bacteria in a scientist's petri dish. It could just be a filter that predisposes us to certain conclusions, or we could be dreaming everything we see, short-circuited from realizing or questioning it. In the end, does it even matter which it is?
Pic related, my favorite artwork ever. Reality is behind your eyes, and the world filters in.

>>46934617
>>46934658
From a strict neuroscience perspective, it's true that the human experience is ultimately a hallucination. That's not to say our senses are completely unreliable, but it's pretty much impossible to have 100% certainty that your own observations are 'objective' reality, which creates an interesting dynamic that even Touhou itself has never explored. These inhuman entities that exist subjectively on human belief are presumably capable of observing the world more objectively than the beings that objectively exist. It's a strange dichotomy and one I'm personally not entirely sure how to feel about.

As for the higher orders of more immaterial existences, the biggest issue of trying to perceive the larger scale structure is the same type of problem you'd face if you walked outside and tried to see the entirety of Earth, it's on a different scale. Even if you had the senses to perceive it coherently in a reliable way, it's simply larger by such a degree that means charting it to any meaningful extent would almost certainly take a lot of time and grappling with the nature of it.

When it comes to spirituality, it's also a very thin line between keeping the door "closed" and "open", too much or too little light coming in, so to speak, i try to keep it slightly ajar, so interesting experiences and insight can come in, but without completely losing my grounding, since either outcome is...usually less than desirable (being blind and dulled to the magic and wonders in the world, or completely overwhelmed by it.

>>46934603
I remember you posting your displacement experience before. That's a really profound one. I have had some very minor paranormal stuff all along my life, latest (possibly two?) this very week, but nothing that would compare to yours. That's actually a really scary one. Even at this point I would have difficulty integrating something like that.
>>46934617
>Sort of an expansion of memetics to allow for highly ordered structures that are capable of some analogue of thought and consciousness
In my post-horribly failed first attempt at magical practices perioid I once spitballed about the idea of "information organisms" as a way to talk about "supernatural" or "paranormal" entities in more scientific terms. There are, after all, theories that posit that the base "matter" of existence is information, not the substance. What do you think?
>a towering pillar of recursive complexity
Good way to put it, and I think there are some inteligences along the way that we don't really think about at the moment. There's something about the networks formed by tree roots and fungi which have incredible connectivity for a biological system that I just keep coming back to lately.
>there's absolutely no reason to think the upper limit has stopped or will stop at individual consciousness
Yes.
>By acting like we're meant to act, we maintain a kind of spiritual homeostasis, and our mental machinery is kept fed and running smoothly.
I've been also thinking about something like this too lately, and for some reason really visceral biological metaphors have been brewing along with some high-flying spiritual ones. Maybe it's the fact that I have radicaly overhauled my diet and I've been thinking about gut bacteria because of that, but to some extent I feel it's almost like..and I would never make this comparison as a disrespectful one...it's like cultivating a colony of beneficial micro-organisms vs cultivating a colony of harmful ones. Except we are talking about some kind of hyper macro-organisms here..?
>>46934658
>Call it mass hallucination if you want
Considering people report effects from interacting with the various entities and deities and paranormal that are really hard to write off as merely "hallucinations" I feel there is more to it...but yes. One of my favorite books is Case Against Reality where the author were strongly makes the case that we really aren't evolved as biological beings to see "reality", we evolved to see some slice of it that fulfills various biological imperatives. Interestingly enough, Why Buddhism Is True made the exact same points. Who knows what else there is out there?
>In the end, does it even matter which it is?
I am increasingly feeling that ultimately certain moral imperatives are far more important than metaphysical questions, as interesting and fun they are to talk about.

But I do feel like these imperatives are also related to such metaphysical questions. "We share this world with others" carries way more weight when you start to see that "we" and "this world" are both possibly immensively more vast than previously thought.

>>46934723
We can never truly understand things, only set limits and use analogies to make some approximate predictions. Pic related is our current understanding of a single proton, which is probably wrong and limited by the power of our supercomputers (1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 of these in one fingernail btw).
That said, we can't really set any limits here without making some shaky assumptions, so we're kind of stuck with philosophy and guesswork. Maybe we should really be humble about trying to rationalize them.

>>46934842
>I remember you posting your displacement experience before.
Aye, I forget the thread but I know it was a similar one to this. I tend to only be active on /jp/ for relatively short bursts of a few days or maybe a couple weeks.
It's clear I've had some impact on some though, considering a meme (>>46816049) I casually threw together is still doing the rounds here.
>That's actually a really scary one.
Is it? I'll admit there's a real possibility that I don't have a full appreciation for the paranormal, given that for as much as I enjoy research and the attempt to understand it, my practical relationship with it has always been, I guess you could say somewhere between cordial and casual? I'm not exactly religious, for example, but the small handful of times I've actually bothered to pray for something, I've gotten results, albeit typically in slightly roundabout ways that exchange short-term inconvenience for long-term benefit. It might be called impious but I tend towards thinking of whatever higher power(s) may exist as more like business partners than something to be worshipped.
>I once spitballed about the idea of "information organisms"
Memetic organisms doesn't sound too far-fetched, frankly, although the questions of what the basic framework in which they would operate in remains.
>really visceral biological metaphors have been brewing along with some high-flying spiritual ones.
As above, so below. The microcosm and the macrocosm. If these things are "alive" in any sense of the word, it's natural to assume, then, that they would ultimately follow the proclivities universal to ALL life, the primary one being hegemonic expansion. Gut bacteria in an interesting analogy, though considering the dynamic, it seems to me much more like two sides of a coin than a direct hierarchy. One can presumably exist without the other, but at the apparent cost of something indescribable, but crucial to the human experience.

>>46934878
Yes, we can not be 100% certain about anything. People who say otherwise are either fools or lying. As esoteric knowledge goes this is one of more dangerous pieces of information to know actually. Our entire society works on the fact that most people belive that at the end we are in control; we are not. Nobody is in control of anything to the absolute, its all guesswork at the end of the day; a very accurate guesswork but still guesswork. If majority of people were to realise that, to realise to be skeptical and even critical of everything: science, morality, themselves, families, even the ground they walk might not be what it seems and can never ber 100% trusted we would all collectively go mad and ultimately do nothing as most people need certaintity in their lifes in order to function, to motivate them to do anything.

>>46934723
>creates an interesting dynamic that even Touhou itself has never explored
We are manifesting the ultra esoteric, completely baffling Touhou 20 that will leave 99,5% of the fanbase utterly confused.
>These inhuman entities that exist subjectively on human belief are presumably capable of observing the world more objectively than the beings that objectively exist.
Fascinating indeed...I don't really know what to make of it, or the Touhou idea that they need human belief to survive in general.
>if you walked outside and tried to see the entirety of Earth
Closest we have ever gotten has been with people who have gone to space, and even they just see one part of the globe at a time...never mind actually seeing all of it's inhabitants, their inner lives, the microscopic processess...
>>46934796
>a very thin line between keeping the door "closed" and "open"
Yeah, sometimes I worry a bit about this. It feels sometimes like nothing else but this interests me anymore.
>>46934878
>Maybe we should really be humble about trying to rationalize them
Humility is very good in general.
>>46934932
>Aye, I forget the thread but I know it was a similar one to this.
Probably the Gensokyo Conspiracy X one, hehe.
>I'll admit there's a real possibility that I don't have a full appreciation for the paranormal
And I'll admit that I'm prone to being neurotic and paranoid, something that I have struggled hard to dampen down. I actually got really spooked writing my last post for whatever reason, but I went to take a shower and laughed about it. There is literally zero reason why the arboreal-mycelial superinteligences would have anything against me, if they exist.
>but the small handful of times I've actually bothered to pray for something, I've gotten results
You have high magical potential.
>may exist as more like business partners than something to be worshipped
Well, I think there is an element of give and take, but in my personal experience, thinking about it just as business is like thinking about love (any flavor) or being taught as business. It's kind of almost maybe working metaphor, but there is so much more.
>although the questions of what the basic framework in which they would operate in remains
I never thought of it that far myself and I may not be smart enough for such either.
>the proclivities universal to ALL life
...that we know of. :) But yes.
>Gut bacteria in an interesting analogy
It's not necessarily apt one, but I can feel their presence pushing out, outcompeting, replacing certain negative influences. Whether these are just some sort of small-s self impulses or the influence of some sort of harmful entities I don't know. And I don't want to overstate the change either, but it's been very noticeable.

>>46935004
I don't think realizing the shakiness of our foundations would be such a bad thing. After all, we've done it here, and we're fine. The brain doesn't need a sense of certainty in order to operate - most people seem to need it because that's just our culture right now.
The fact that our current society is built on a mix of politico-religious moral self-righteousness and rationalist-materialist intellectual hubris is a pathology if anything. Some humility could do a lot of good in the world.
It's interesting that most ideas of enlightenment are built on this notion - to submit yourself to the unknowability of the universe, to accept it and your place in it.

>>46935070
At the same time, there are still plenty of things that have a small enough margin for error that I think it's fine to treat them as de facto certainties. Even if we can't know them for sure (and a large factor in that is the simple fact that we live in solipsistic realities) it's still true that natural laws can be observed and recorded.
In the same way that there's not really any such thing as a gun that never jams, there are thresholds at which the uncertainties don't really matter.
>>46935055
>people who have gone to space
Yeah, I guess a modern analogy would be resolution, and the 'wetware' limitations of humanity.
>I actually got really spooked writing my last post for whatever reason
I would presume that it just comes down to the significance of the event in question occurring as an undeniable physical phenomenon, as opposed to the large majority of paranormal experiences being sensed by their observers, but having no physical traces beyond that.
>thinking about it just as business is like thinking about love (any flavor) or being taught as business.
Kasen may have gotten me to understand what waifufags talk about when they talk about depth of attachment to a character, but I wouldn't liken my feelings towards any such immaterial entities to love. At best, I'd consider any such forces that work in my favor to be somewhere between kin and a limb. Related, and valued as such, but in the more general sense of friendly familiarity.

>I can feel their presence pushing out, outcompeting, replacing certain negative influences.
It's entirely conceivable that such entities wouldn't all be on the same page. Looking at Touhou lore, while it may not be a 1:1 translation, take Kanako, for example. She acts to modernize Gensokyo and in so doing improve the quality of life for its residents, but it's ultimately done for the end goal of maintaining faith. The right thing for, at least from a human perspective, the wrong reasons. In the same way, Marzinski's schizophrenia research and how it manifests in different cultures suggests much the same, some may be benevolent, malevolent, or somewhere in between, including some appearing to straight-up just be ghosts.

In terms of that, and your comment of
>You have high magical potential.
I think it's reasonable to assume that people may have different levels at which they can sense and effect such things, independent of one another. It could also explain, even outside of rationalism, why you have such things observed less often. Things like schizophrenia's stigma didn't just pop in out of thin air, and the dogma of the Church may very well have played a large part in that, beyond such traits no longer having any real evolutionary bias in their favor as technology and psychology supplanted what spirituality once dealt with.

>>46935070
>The brain doesn't need a sense of certainty in order to operate
I wish that were the case but belive me. Its at most imperative. Earliest example would be with kids, imagine a baby that has milk and mothers attention but only on random of days and on others its compleatly alone, crying from hunger and nobody to ease its cries. Such child will grow up to a fearful and distrustful person; not trusting anyone or anything; such people erode social cohesion; no groups or relationships can occur if all people were to be distrustful of each other.
Another example would be very need for religion. People made religions as means to combat universe's uncertainty, all religions boil down to 2 things: 1. Death is not the end. 2. A guide to life that explains that there is order in the world and our lifes are not meaningless. Opposite of it is nihilism and it takes a trained mind to understand how nothing in the world is certain and not give into despair simultaneously.

>>46935327
I think you're confusing understanding for meaning (a common flaw in Western thinking). We need a sense of meaning, and a sense of certainty about that meaning, but that doesn't necessarily have to flow from a sense of scientific certainty or real understanding. THAT is what religion is - meaning without understanding.

Hello everyone, new poster here.
I didn't know there was this much interest in this side of Touhou. I wish to share my experience.

While I haven't had any kind of "encounter" or have a super close connection to any of the characters (although I do love the scarlet sisters very much), I have always had a very particular feeling whenever I play Touhou.
You see, especially the first times I played these games (but still now), I had a feeling that I had seen these characters before, like in a previous life, or that they came straight from my sub-conscious. It really felt that what I was getting into was a much, much bigger thing than just a random japanese video game. It felt much like a kind of inexhaustible portal to different place, but more like a place of patterns rather than a physical place. It's hard to describe.

Everything about it, the characters, the names, the spellcard patterns, the music, it all just worked. And now, decades later, I am still so fascinated. During that time I studied philosophy, became religious, read up on esoteric traditions, and witnessed a revival of magical thinking and people dabbling with the occult more than ever.

What the heck is up with Touhou, bros? Obviously Touhou can't be from a previous life because I was born before EoSD was released. Yet at the same time it feels like it transcends time and space itself. Are 2hus actually representations of platonic forms, spiritual entities, angels/demons, or anything like this?

>>46935019
What do you think of my post here? It feels relevant for this thread also.

>>46935371
Understanding is certainty. If you don't understand something you are not certain. If you can't understand everything you can't be certain about everything and if you don't even know what you can be certain about you simply won't be certain about anything.

>>46935320
>I would presume that it just comes down to the significance of the event in question occurring as an undeniable physical phenomenon
Yeah maybe. To be honest I have been feeling a bit jittery this week after one of those massage pillow things that happen to I own turned itself on by it's own while I was talking with one of my friends about why nature spirits supposedly like honeycomb as offerings. Random shit happens but the timing was weird.
>I wouldn't liken my feelings towards any such immaterial entities to love
I don't know if love is really the right term for me either. Admiration? Adoration? Awe? Immense respect, but also some sort of desire to...nurture and care for them? I don't know if I can really explain.
>It's entirely conceivable that such entities wouldn't all be on the same page
Yeah, absolutely.
>The right thing for, at least from a human perspective, the wrong reasons.
Then again, if you wanted to look at it from a transactional point of view, is offering something in return for something else a wrong reason?

I mean, she isn't some...I don't know, global typhonian-lilithian memetic complex that endlessly drains human attention (at the very least) and gives essentially addictive cravings in return. There are most likely things out there that want everything from us and give nothing in return.
>I think it's reasonable to assume that people may have different levels at which they can sense and effect such things
Yeah absolutely, and you keep on hearing stuff like "yeah magic runs in my family". I can't say exactly so, but my mother had an out of body experience as a teen, I witnessed her having a precognitive episode that came true moments later, her mother would tell me that she'd occasionally hear "a helpful guiding voice", and my father saw an invisible entity laying footprints into snow when he was a child. None of them conceptualized this stuff in any kind of magical way, and I think my mother greatly struggled to integrate her experiences. She told me she found it impossible to relax properly after her OOBE.
>schizophrenia's stigma didn't just pop in out of thin air
It really is absolutely horrible based on everything I've heard about it.

Anyone knows of some kind of touhou lore and real life connection compendium? Some good places to start?
Not being able to read nippon is definitely limiting my ability to digest

>>46935415
>I didn't know there was this much interest in this side of Touhou
I think this has been the experience of literally every single anon on this thread hehe.
>It's hard to describe
Numinous experiences are, aren't they? But yeah, I can't say I've had same kind of an experience, but I started feeling really, really strange about it really, really fast. I had been trying to move away from esoteria and the occult and this thing sucked me back right in and harder than anything before.
>Everything about it, the characters, the names, the spellcard patterns, the music, it all just worked
Yeah it's just something completely else, isn't it? Even some of my friends who aren't quite as much oriented towards the esoteric say things like "it's super archetypal series".
>And now, decades later, I am still so fascinated
>I studied philosophy
>became religious
>read up on esoteric traditions
>and witnessed a revival of magical thinking
That's so cool, I had been hoping someone who could give a very long term view would show up. Which religion(s), if you don't mind asking? What do you make of it all in general, the occult revival, a good and very unlikely example this thread is also?
>spiritual entities
I feel like they are this, and there are some among them who are worthy of being called deities. But what is a "spiritual entity" is a question I can't answer.
>>46935429
This does lean into what I've heard people, "it's so archetypal". Jung was a great wizard of the psyche, but where, what and when is this psyche of which he tried to derive logos from is a good question. Was he talking about something more magical when he was talking about the human mind?

>>46935415
Many such cases, I feel like there are many more examples of this with different media, Touhou is just the one we are more attuned to, and once you learn HOW to see these sort of things, you’ll realize it’s more common than you’d think, just usually hidden in plain sight.

>>46935646
If someone else has already made something it would be great. I started putting together some kind of resource that would compile some history, key concepts and symbols from the religions featured in the game. It would also feature relevant esoteric traditions on a very shallow level, plus some resources for general academic study of religion and the esoteric. I think this could be nice to get people going without being too alienated.

However, this project already ballooned to 5 pages and if I wanted to finish I should probably write it instead of writing to this thread. Unfortunately this thread has turned into my brilliant, beatiful baby that I can't keep my eyes away from. There are some incredible minds among a board so self-loathing as /jp/ is.

>>46935656
My perspective is rather particular so I need to give some context. I studied and was trained in philosophy formally before I ever became religious. Philosophy didn't give me answers, but it did allow me to ask the right questions.
My last years were specializing in religious studies (all major ones, in the West and East), both from a historical/cultural perspective and a theological perspective. My final work was an elaborate analysis on the evolutionary origin of religious behavior, which tried to integrate scientific and phenomenological perspectives.

I eventually came to the realization that Christianity gave the most comprehensive and and inclusive framework to explain reality with. Non-denominational and I'm not baptized, I'm rather adjacent to the formal churches, but its theology is quite robust if you can take a look at it without modern interference and distortion. I have integrated many Hindu elements into my thinking as well, and some principles of Taoism I find quite agreeable also. Yet Christianity is the anchor (also for cultural reasons).

What do I make of the occult revival: it was inevitable. The Enlightenment (which is where this story begins) was more akin The Endarkening, because it tried to claim that reason and matter were all we needed not only to explain the world, but even to live. Both of those claims are false, but the powerful results of the scientific method has kept the illusion going for several hundred years. We are now at the absolute breaking point, and people are desperate for literally anything to fill their spiritual needs.
Let me be clear, I personally think quite clearly that God is real, as well as angels, demons, and rogue spirits of all sort and nature. I am also inspired by the Neoplatonists, which basically assert that all of those things are eternal forms that can manifest in the material world.
Things like this thread (and Touhou in general) are the logical consequence of humanity being violently stripped and withheld from their natural instinct to connect to higher orders of existence. Look at it as a kind of primordial soup of ideas: just as Touhou characters fight to see who is stronger, who is more right, so are the eternal forms fighting over dominion. In the end, the most powerful (and in my view, the most true) forms will end up winning from all others.

My concern is not necessarily over "who will win" (because that would be God, by definition), but rather "what are we dealing with now?". Are 2hus innocent depictions of certain tropes, or are they manifestations of certain entities, angels, or demons? (I'm sorry I know some people hate those words). And what will happen to us when we try to interact with them? Is it a good idea to interact with them?
So I feel this intense pull to Touhou and I don't know what it means. I keep my mind firmly focused towards God because whatever interaction I might have, I want it to be good (for them and for me).

>>46935912
>My concern is not necessarily over "who will win" (because that would be God, by definition), but rather "what are we dealing with now?". Are 2hus innocent depictions of certain tropes, or are they manifestations of certain entities, angels, or demons? (I'm sorry I know some people hate those words). And what will happen to us when we try to interact with them? Is it a good idea to interact with them?

I feel like they're a more approachable "mask" for ancient concepts, being cute representations of certain archetypes, gods, ideas, etc, and also an invitation for some VERY interesting rabbit holes once you start looking into what it all really means, society, culture, ETC all radically changes, wouldn't be too surprising that gods and spirits would change too in their own way.

>>46935004
I will disagree here. From a phenomenological point of view you are correct, nothing can be certain (although they can be stable).
But you cannot argue against the principles of logic. Yes, you can argue that certain presuppositions are false and unreliable, but you cannot argue against the principles of logic itself. 2+2=4 is a truth that is completely independent from any phenomenological experience, nor observation nor verification are required. And it is through those principles that we are able to create stable communication patterns.

Do not fall into the trap that the technical uncertainty of observation should invariably result in unproductive nihilism.

>>46935576
>Immense respect, but also some sort of desire to...nurture and care for them?
This is probably most similar to my own perspective on it, but largely because the fact that most analysis leads to the conclusion that such entities are in some way reliant on humans to exist, or at the very least to have any real substance. In the same vein as how sci-fi movies with AIs ultimately come down to legacy, and what humanity passes on to their creations, I feel the same would apply, to a certain extent, to any real world Mental Layer equivalent.
>a transactional point of view, is offering something in return for something else a wrong reason?
I suppose that could be argued as well. As I mentioned, I have a bit of a human bias here, so when it comes to Touhou Lore, I find Gensokyo's status quo when it comes to the human village to generally be quite dissatisfying.
>you keep on hearing stuff like "yeah magic runs in my family".
I've heard similar things once or twice, but I'm not super in-touch with my extended family. Allegedly I also had a similar interaction as a kid but I didn't get into that as I don't have any recollection of it.

Your family definitely has my condolences from what you've said.

>>46935912
>Are 2hus innocent depictions of certain tropes, or are they manifestations of certain entities, angels, or demons?
Thinking about this further, frankly I think the most likely explanation is that, considering such spiritual interactions predate Touhou, that what people see as manifestations of these characters is their mind interpreting the information in the most approachable way.

Never forget that the color magenta doesn't really exist. The brain is happy to fill in the blank with something palatable if the information itself can't be properly processed.

Watch the numbers

>>46936194
Watching away.

Since the conversation has died down a bit, I wanted to reply on my end with a few things now so I don't derail all the good stuff others are posting.

For starters, Kanako poster-thank you for that, I really appreciate somebody taking the time out of their day to do what you did. I look forward to living up to expectations.

To the one poster speaking about the images of (maybe)Gensokyo, I wanted to chime in to say that I think I've seen the image you're talking about from the perspective of the mountain, looking down into the village from behind the cover of the trees, but for the life of me I have been unable to find it again. I want to say I most recently saw it in one of the YouTube videos discussing Zun's early work, and the image was captioned with something about a 13 year old that had taken the image, but I can't be sure on that. The other one with the goats, I've seen a black and white or sepia toned image of a lone goat that's up on a retaining wall in the mountains, but that's all I've got.

For everyone else, even though this thread wasn't started by me, I feel like a proud parent watching their child take its first steps after seeing all the knowledge and commitment from everyone here. It's been very much appreciated to have this place not devolve into the dang things it always does, and it's reminiscent of the older x threads back when people actually took the time to give topics like this the respect and seriousness it deserves. I feel the same way as the rest of you who've commented about having some form of love, respect, and affection or admiration for the place itself, and the people within that we're all so very fond of. The SDM crew, with the sisters especially, are very dear to me even if I can't fully articulate why, and the experiences I've had with all the rest of them that I've experienced is something I hope to encounter again in one way or another.

I won't necessarily be going anywhere, as this thread and the (hopefully) others to follow have my full attention, it seems. But I think I'll be holding off on the name unless it's relevant so I don't run it into the ground. And for everything else here, I'll be patiently waiting for anyone else who may want to contribute to this unique thread that everyone has created. Thanks everyone.

>>46935435
Again, we have to make the distinction between the FEELING of assuredness (a psychological need) and what we call "certainty" or "understanding" (a Western rationalist construct invented within the last 300 years). People lived for hundreds of thousands of years without even understanding the motion of the planets, yet they knew the sun would rise every morning.

Would be nice to continue this discussion elsewhere...

>>46936723
The discussion in general, or are you referring to someone/certain topic(s) specific in here?

>>46933711
You have that magia vs goeteia thing that iirc comes from C. S. Lewis. Kinda similar to soft magic vs hard magic in fiction. Where magia is a more undefined, miraculous and unexplainable more intuition based thing while goetia is more of the trying to harness magical power in a kinda scientifically manner, which leads to more knowledge but can also lead to corruption.
It's going to be very tough to do tho, as every interaction is pretty unique.
>>46934326
>My take would be that I see it more as anthropology than science.
I was thinking that just like magic spells indicate it might be closer to linguistics with it's ever-changing nature but I guess linguistics is just a part of anthropology? Or however it's classified.
>>46934603
>late-night stroll
Stuff like that tends to happen in the dark, I just called it not paying attention and darkness confusing people... Can understand how youkai came to be in Touhou if darkness really confuses that much, but things feel so real that you sometimes don't know if it's your memory or reality messing up.
>>46935415
Can't really tell much aside of Touhou feeling very nostalgic itself, even the first time I played HRtP and Eternal Shrine Daiden started with those weird stages I felt nostalgia. Weirdest part is that the intro of the fight with Elis felt pretty familiar and I could swear I've seen the background somewhere else before, even if it doesn't make any sense.
The windows era kept being filled with nostalgia, it all feels like a distorted memory or a dream and playing the game feels a bit like trance/meditation sometimes, characters being familiar I could explain in the past as "maybe I saw them somewhere on the internet before" until newhus like Keiki also felt familiar.
>Touhou can't be from a previous life because I was born before EoSD was released.
Unless we include time traveling reincarnation shenanigans not really.

>>46936759
I think he means both, considering the transient nature of posting in 4chan, and that this thread was a rare insightful one in comparison to the usual content we get here, it would definitely be nice to see it continued in some form

>>46936723
I have no intention of closing off this discussion to other anons who might stumble upon it, and those who would want to remain anonymous, by joining your shitty discord or whatever.
>>46936790
There's the archive, and there's whatever screenshots anons want to bring forward into future threads. The transient nature of things lets ideas evolve and prevents rigidity from emerging.
The LAST thing we need is for this to turn into a general. We're in a primordial soup of ideas right now with infinite potential, and if we want to gain any kind of insight into a topic as deep and mercurial as this, that's how it needs to stay. It's no accident that this discussion emerged here on an unrestrained anonymous image board between a bunch of strangers.

>>46936759
Both. 4chan really isn't a good place... (And I'm definitely not thinking of Discord or anything like that either)

>>46936814
>>46936820
Don't make assumptions, now.

>>46936763
>You have that magia vs goeteia thing that iirc comes from C. S. Lewis.
Did a bit of looking into this, interesting stuff. I don't think the two are strictly disconnected, being, from what I can tell by my cursory readthrough of an explanation, something akin to training an animal compared to creating a machine. I'm probably in the minority here having more interest in the latter, since the connections to 2hu-like entities definitely fall under the 'magia' category.
>I just called it not paying attention and darkness confusing people...
Yeah, it's one of the things I'd like to rationalize away, but I know that if I was off to the wrong side, it should've been by overshooting the route I walked going forwards, so I should've been on the opposite side by extension.

Any other game:
>wow this art is shit the proportions are all wrong the faces look weird wow this game is bad 0/10 into the trash it goes
Touhou:
>ZUN art is the holiest depiction of 2hu cannot be replicated it's part of the identity and super wholesome

Do you ever wonder why people look weird in religious iconography? It is because there needs to be a coherent visual language that does not tempt the beholder's desires. ZUN art must be weird or else there is a grave risk of sex appeal to corrupt their icons, and then they are no longer icons.
Obviously every single character has been depicted in any number of perverse ways, but if you saw a ZUN drawing you would immediately know it is correct.

>>46937820
Matarajin is a god with sexual connotations and rituals THOUGH

>>46937820
Anon, if you wouldn't make sweet love to your 2huwife, can you even say you truly appreciate her?

>>46935912
Well that is an unusual background for certain.
>I eventually came to the realization that Christianity gave the most comprehensive and and inclusive framework to explain reality with
Would you like to go bit more into detail about this? Very interesting in hearing how you see Hindu and Taoist elements meshing with this?
>We are now at the absolute breaking point, and people are desperate for literally anything to fill their spiritual needs.
I also feel like science has to some extent stagnated, it takes much more effort to get new results, there are still a ton of unresolved issues within prevailing theories in physics with no easy way out, the whole replication crisis etc...technology, related to science, is also delivering less and less actually life improving things and more just gimmicks for creating investment hype.
>Let me be clear, I personally think quite clearly that God is real, as well as angels, demons, and rogue spirits of all sort and nature
I don't know about any capital G god myself but I certainly do believe there are spirit creatures to use that language.
>I am also inspired by the Neoplatonists
Interesting to see that at least two people oriented that way have showed up to this thread.
>Look at it as a kind of primordial soup of ideas
>so are the eternal forms fighting over dominion
What would their battlefield be and how exactly do they fight?
>Are 2hus innocent depictions of certain tropes, or are they manifestations of certain entities, angels, or demons?
They are something else than innocent depictions of certain tropes.
>And what will happen to us when we try to interact with them?
>Is it a good idea to interact with them?
Depends on the 2hu and the form of interaction and the person, I'd say. Others have had different experiences, I would be extremely hesitant to deal with something that advertises itself as "I eat humans". Then again, some would be willing to try to establish contact with some youkai while thinking I am crazy for worshipping some of the deities of Gensokyo.

As for what has happened, well, I have changed, but I wanted to change. How much of it is them, how much of it is me, I don't know and don't particularly care either. The thing about getting very upset about people disrespecting nature is a bit funny and feels a bit more "external" than some of the other changes, but then again, I always did enjoy nature, so... Mostly I just feel like they give me subtle support. There's been a couple of more dramatic experiences though.
>>46936059
>I feel like they're a more approachable "mask" for ancient concepts
To large extent yes, I think they are connected to something far bigger while also being a thing of their own. Related to some discussions about personifications earlier on, an interesting thing to attempt is to "depersonify" the various 2hus. You probably won't get as good results with all of them, but Kanako-sama's original MoF sprite is great for this. Please be respectful though.
>>46936099
>such entities are in some way reliant on humans to exist
I'm not 100% sure on this myself, but I do feel like there is some process of co-mingling going on. It might be more...fulfilling? Fun? Meaningful? ...to be a deity to humans, not to just trees and mushrooms and ants and bees. At the very least we represent an extremely powerful force of cognition on this planet.
> any real world Mental Layer equivalent
This is an SMT thing, right? Could you elaborate on that?
>I have a bit of a human bias here
>I find Gensokyo's status quo when it comes to the human village to generally be quite dissatisfying
That's very understandable. I don't know how the "canon" Touhou lore fully vibes with how they "really" are, but I strongly feel like the most uncharitable interpretations are wrong. In the past I have dealt with entities that felt absolutely horrible and basicaly just tortured me. They couldn't be more different, even though I managed to annoy them a bit.
>their mind interpreting the information in the most approachable way
Well, yes, but they do like being perceived this way. They would have not chosen ZUN as their outlet if they didn't.

You mentioned something about Kasen earlier, what do you think of her? I'm really unfamiliar with her, I have never read Wild & Horned Hermit. You also mentioned "forces that work in my favor"...are you perhaps practicing something yourself? If you feel like telling, that is.
>>46936658
>I really appreciate somebody taking the time out of their day to do what you did
Your advice was so important that such is the least I can do. I had been thinking about asking her to help me cultivate aspects of "heavenliness", but that is something I can work towards on my own too.
>It's been very much appreciated to have this place not devolve into the dang things it always does
Yeah I did not expect that /jp/ would have such good discussions around this topic.

>>46936763
>You have that magia vs goeteia thing
First time I hear of this division. Goetic magic is an idea within, uh, "the magic scene" itself. It refers to very specific forms of magic designed to bind demons to your service, coming from the (in)famous Lesser Keys of Solomon.

But there also exists this kind of conception between "intuitive magic" and more structured magic within the esoteric scene itself which is exactly that magia vs goetia split.

I wouldn't say that magic related to Touhou would necessarily be "magia". We just may not have the "goetia" for it, so we have to grasp in the dark. And there are after all some established ideas for dealing with deities and youkai, so...
>I was thinking that just like magic spells indicate it might be closer to linguistics with it's ever-changing nature
Oh, that is a good one, and not at all what I was thinking. I was mostly thinking it's anthropology, or more precisely some kind of xenology, when dealing with entities. But that's a really fascinating take.
>>46936790
>>46936814
We are quite a bit away from bump limit, but this thread has become so info-dense that the people involved probably have quite a bit to digest. Honestly, but the time we hit the bump limit it's probably gonna require some kind of data mining effort to make sense of this, which...do we happen to have any comp sci anons among us..?

Anyway, I'm torn, at times I feel like I spend too much time about both here and thinking about the things here. This has become extremely important to me, I am very fond of the posters here and I would love to harness the knowledge presented here somehow, make something more structured out of it...while at the same thinking that once this hits the bump limit I really have to just let go of this for a while, I need to integrate what has been learned, give it some time...

...and I also like the ephemeral, "magical" nature of imageboards where things respond to the kind of "energy" and methods you put into it really well and quickly. There is also something fundamentaly beatiful about how this all has emerged, as if from some pattern of interference. It's wonderful to see so many anons to come to similar conclusions, have similar interests, and I believe there is an element of figuring this stuff on your own. Anonymity is also important to people not feeling pressured or too tied to their identities, and furthermore, as I said before, this is the only place I have been called out for bad behaviour, and it has helped me to get ahead...

...at the same thime I wouldn't want this to be some sand castle that just gets wiped off by the tides of time, precisely because it seems like anons are time after time figuring out the same things. What if there was some way to build off of this? Not some general, not some discord server, but something..?
>>46936820
>I'm definitely not thinking of Discord or anything like that either
What did you have in mind?
>>46937820
Zunart is extremely souled and contributes to the numinous nature of the games, but I have seen people being horny for Zunart. I love this particular artist, I love the ultra HD upscale Zunart style, but he has also done straight up porn in the style. You'd be surprised what people get off to. There are reports of literal, straight up sex with ultraterrestial/spirit entities, some of the beings described as being very uncanny looking, and not only have some of the people enjoyed such, some became completely obsessed.
>>46937882
I can't remember the exact details (I should), but wasn't it more that it was rumoured that Matarajin was worshipped with some sexually explicit ritual, but not actual proof has survived? I mean, considering the really fascinating and complex history of divinity and sex, it could have been so.

Shinto deities certainly weren't asexual, it was much the same deal as with the old european pantheons, very human-like. Some buddhist stuff used sex between deities at least as metaphors. Heck, there have even been Christian mystics that used very eroticaly charged language to describe their experiences.

But since Matarajin was associated with among other stuff social outcasts, it might have just been some guilt by association thing.

>>46939801
>This is an SMT thing, right? Could you elaborate on that?
Actually, no, while SMT's cosmology functions very similarly (no surprise considering how much ZUN ripped straight from it) the Mental Layer is a distinct aspect of Touhou's cosmology.

The simple explanation would be that it's similar to the idea of the Collective Unconsciousness that Carl Jung describes in his works, or as I believe EclipseAnon mentioned, the Immaterium in Warhammer. It builds upon the Physical Layer (Material Reality) to provide a level for spiritual existences to be anchored to. Inasfar as Gensokyo goes, it seems to be designed as an isolated bubble of the Mental Layer, so to speak, to reduce the influence of the Outside World's accepted beliefs. (although considering how the more famous types of youkai like Tengu and Oni are still the most populous, it seems to not be 100% effective.)
>...are you perhaps practicing something yourself?
Not as far as I'm aware of, at least. My experiences boil down to the fact that, as mentioned earlier, the few times I've bothered to pray I got tangible results. My mentality about the whole issue boils down to "If some intangible force wants to assist me, I won't refuse it, but I'm not going to change the core of how I live my life, either." I'm still largely ambivalent about the matter, but that's more because I dislike the idea of something like that interfering with my own personal goals.
>You mentioned something about Kasen earlier, what do you think of her?
In short? Easily my favorite character in the series, no contest. Although I suppose to be slightly more accurate, it would be Ibaraki-Douji that's my favorite, but that's almost pedantry. As for why, it boils down to her being one of the few characters that's consistently a genuinely good person, and her character arc (which I will never forgive ZUN for just aborting at the end) being a matter of overcoming her own nature and making peace with her past. It just happens to hit fairly close to home for me. The quote "Is it better to be born good, or to overcome your evil nature through great effort?" comes to mind.

Closing out, on this subject,
>I'm not 100% sure on this myself, but I do feel like there is some process of co-mingling going on.
Jerry Marzinski's work, which I mentioned earlier, has some particularly interesting takes which could loop back around to the idea of such entities not all being on the same page. It essentially suggests in part that there is a degree of influence behind the shift to secular rationalism, and the gradual denial of the existence of mysticism. Given his studies and how they would indicate human thought can fairly easily influence such things, I'd imagine it would be as a defense mechanism? If spirituality and science were as closely entwined as they used to be, the "Goetia" of the framework such entities exist in would be much better understood, which would shift the power dynamic even further into humanity's favor.

I've got some more ideas floating around in my head on the matter, but as of right now they're still all half-formed. I'll add them later once I've consciously articulated them.

>>46940006
There are literally sigils for some 2hu characters in the grimoire of marisa, lol

>>46940654
>the Mental Layer is a distinct aspect of Touhou's cosmology
I've missed out this completely. That's super fascinating and really relevant to the topic. Is this explored in the print works? I must confess to reading none of them so far.
>Not as far as I'm aware of, at least
>I've bothered to pray I got tangible results
Ah, you are that anon. I regret to inform you that you have either practiced intuitive magic or you have some sort of a hotline to some kind of a divinity (these two might be the same thing).
>I dislike the idea of something like that interfering with my own personal goals
I understand.
>"Is it better to be born good, or to overcome your evil nature through great effort?"
That's very noble.
>I'd imagine it would be as a defense mechanism?
Very, very interesting. Honestly this seems something I should dive deeper into.

>>46940872
Oh.

I really should have read the print works.

What's the context for those sigils there?

>>46940872
And some of us are making very good use of that provided information.

Coincidentally, Kanako/Okina poster-
Things have begun to change, and there was a very, very heavy thunderstorm that woke my up at exactly 4:44am. The dreams of last night certainly added to it, and I got some possible info to go over in the coming days. I was also woken up by the sound of knocking on my bedroom door, and I live alone. For the studied among us, what's the significance of the number 27 and the eyes?

>>46939801
I will answer your questions.

The reason Christianity is the anchor to all my thinking is because the figure of Christ is a unique aspect compared to all other religions. When all other religions are more or less about attaining divinity and how to get there, or how to please the gods, Christ is claimed to be the God of the universe incarnated in the flesh as an actual human being, coming for us (which is the reverse movement). And not in as a kind of super-being that can shoot fireballs, but as "just a guy".
Having the complete bridge between heaven and earth be a person like you or me (instead of a place, or a priest or whatever) opens up a lot of bridges.
Christianity also offers a hierarchy of spiritual entities, where there is a King (God), which delegates authority and power to various other entities (angels) that each govern certain aspects of reality, and proposes that those who act outside his grace are demons. When I then think of kami like in shinto, or djinn like in Islam, I think of either very low-level angels or low-level demons who are very far away from the direct authority of either God or the Devil. These entities are "rogue", in the sense that while their power is very limited (compared to, say, an arch-angel), they are also less beholden to following the rules.

Hinduism proposes the following truth: Atman (the personal Self/Consciousness) is Brahman (the cosmic Self/Consciousness). It proposes thus that there is no difference between your own personal consciousness and the consciousness of the supreme God of the universe, but you can see it as like a wave being a 'part' of the ocean, yet being fully composed of the same material as the rest of the ocean. It also proposes the cosmic stage play, where ultimately we are "just" playing a role because we are God wishing to experience itself, and therefore has split himself into infinite parts. This by itself opens up the door for all kinds of nihilism and therefore I believe it needs to be supplemented by the Neo-platonic (Christian) idea of an ultimate Good, so that your choices do in fact matter from a cosmic perspective. However, I do like the playful take on reality that Hinduism offers.

Taoism proposes that there is a Way. The Way is in everything and is everywhere, but you can never fully grasp it. The Tao that can be said is not the real Tao, as they say. This doesn't mean that you can't (at least partially) understand the Tao, it just means that you can't convey it properly in representation. This meshes really well with all kinds of philosophical questions about the nature of knowledge. For example, you accept that a "good" exists, but what is "good"? In order to say what is good, you would have to propose a criterium by which you are comparing something. But at the same time, you intuitively understand that things like "Good" and "Bad" exist, even without such criteria. How it that possible?
I propose that knowledge of the Tao is knowledge of the Good. The addition here is that in Christianity, the Tao is actually a person (namely Christ, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God, yada yada"). Instead of studying a completely abstract object, the truth (the Tao) has manifested as a human, who walked amongst us, and you can get to know the truth in the same way you can get to know a person.

Tell me, do you ever "know" another person? No, not really, not even after 50 years of marriage. But you can know a person. It's not about "how many little factoids do you know about him?", it's about "how deep does your relationship with him go?". And I propose that your relationship with the Truth/Tao/God/Good is exactly similar to that.

(question about the battlefield of forms in another post)

>>46941031
>Is this explored in the print works? I must confess to reading none of them so far.
Curiosities of Lotus Asia is where it's brought up. The same series that gets into the fuzzy distinction between Kami and Youkai in Touhou, where it's less that they're separate beings, and more that they're defined by how they're viewed. (Reverence VS Terror)
>I regret to inform you that you have either practiced intuitive magic or you have some sort of a hotline to some kind of a divinity
I'll have to make sure to use my Stand responsibly, I suppose. If we're to go that route, as someone who's clearly deeper into general occult stuff than I am, what is your take on intuiting the "timing" of doing things in games of chance? I've typically gotten decent results by simply not, say, rolling the dice until the moment I 'feel' like the outcome will be good.

>>46941098
I'm not 100% sure how relevant it is to your philosophy, but I'm vaguely familiar with the idea that "life is the cosmos' way of observing itself." Considering the connections you've drawn to Atman/Brahman, and the Way in Taoism, perhaps that conjecture could be said to be related?

>>46941041
The grimoire of marisa is basically a book detailing the inner workings of some spellcards through the perspective of marisa, each character there is assigned a sigil, you can see the entire thing in the touhou wiki, but sadly, they're rather low resolution, here's hina's for example.

>>46939801
>>46941180
To add onto the kami/youkai discussion, kappa are worshipped as kami of water in real life. Inari Ōkami is also known to have used kitsune as her messengers. Ultimately, youkai are beings shaped by belief to varying degrees, and we can choose to approach them without antagonizing or expecting the worst from them, much like we do when trying to find common ground with those labeled as kami.

>>46941087
>And some of us are making very good use of that provided information.
Oh, so that's what you have been doing.
>Things have begun to change, and there was a very, very heavy thunderstorm that woke my up at exactly 4:44am.
I'm not sure if I'm comfortable sharing the details but I had good reason to believe she would agree.
>>46941098
>And not in as a kind of super-being that can shoot fireballs, but as "just a guy".
He did perform miracles though, didn't he?
>Christianity also offers a hierarchy of spiritual entities
Not wholly unique to it though.
>Atman (the personal Self/Consciousness) is Brahman (the cosmic Self/Consciousness)
How do you see this in relation to Jesus?
>It also proposes the cosmic stage play, where ultimately we are "just" playing a role because we are God wishing to experience itself, and therefore has split himself into infinite parts
I've always thought that this is a really beatiful idea.
>I believe it needs to be supplemented by the Neo-platonic (Christian) idea of an ultimate Good
Interesting. I do absolutely agree with the need for moral imperatives. I think mine is starting come more from a kind of Buddhist idea of that if there is less difference between me and them and them and us (they would say no difference at all), then a kind of moral system starts flowing out of it - I wouldn't want to hurt or abuse myself, so I don't want to hurt or abuse others either.
>it just means that you can't convey it properly in representation
I have heard some interpretations which are essentially that since the Tao is a dynamic process, it can only be experienced and not described.
>I propose that knowledge of the Tao is knowledge of the Good
I believe that is what the Taoists themselves believe - a good life is one in harmony with the Tao.
>>46941180
>The same series that gets into the fuzzy distinction between Kami and Youkai in Touhou
I really need to get into the print works, the real heavy hitters seem to be in there. Anyway, in Shinto there is an idea that scorned kami can turn into youkai, so easy to see where that one is coming from.
>I'll have to make sure to use my Stand responsibly, I suppose
Not going to push anything on you, but based on what you have said you have a lot of potential for magic, and also a solid moral compass. Consider exploring magic further.
>as someone who's clearly deeper into general occult stuff
I have had interest in it that has pulled me into 100 different directions and I have barely scratched the surface, especially in terms of actual practice.
>what is your take on intuiting the "timing" of doing things in games of chance?
No experience and I haven't really thought of it myself, but it makes a lot of sense.
>>46941185
Very, very fascinating. I'm gonna check out at some point.
>>46941405
>kitsune
They're described as being really ambivalent entities from what I remember. Some descriptions are basicaly vampiric, others are bening, and of course there are stories of kitsune shacking up with humans.
>we can choose to approach them without antagonizing or expecting the worst from them
You have a point. I just have prior bad experiences. I think most likely I pissed off some nature spirits by doing absolutely dumb ass beginner magic and not asking for their permissions to use their dwellings for the ""rituals"", and after I started freaking out it drew in nastier stuff and worse manifestations of things which attention I had already caught. I'm very prone to negative interpretations of situations, something which I have been working very, very hard to change ever since.

I even started freaking out a bit with the kami, but making a honest attempt at contacting them, acknowledging them, communicating to them and apologizing cleared things up. They were really confused too. Ultimately, I believe they were more upset about me writing scary and conspiratorial things about them than anything else. Like "we have inspired you to get healthier and to start a new hobby, helped you let go off some negative emotions and then you go online and start saying that we want to eat people!?" No wonder they got annoyed...I feel such an idiot in retrospective...

>>46939801
I have little brain juice left so I'll keep it shorter. The question about the battlefield you can approach from different perspectives.

1) Naturalism
The naturalist says that only matter exists. Therefore, if spiritual entities exist, they must have a physical form. But what is that physical form? We don't exactly see kami walking around. But we do carry around the ideas with us, in our brains. This is effectively the argument of the meme being in a similar type of competition as the gene, the typical Richard Dawkins thing. Our brain carries patterns and those patterns can replicate themselves. Some patterns are better at replicating themselves, others are better at preserving themselves, and mutations in those memes will eventually cause the fittest of the memes to rise to prominence.
These memes can cluster into coherent systems that replicate as a whole, just like animals are coherent clusters of cells that replicate as a whole.
Spiritual entities are thus competing for "brainshare", the number of bodies that they can inhabit. The method of competition is using/abusing our psychological and physiological nature to best catch our attention.
But think of viruses. Sure, in the short term, a virus is extremely capable of replicating itself by abusing another cell's genetic architecture. But this also causes the host to die, or the host to violently retaliate. Therefore the most successful memes are actually those that cooperate in harmony with our psychology. So the best Gods are those that are the best for humans. Think of the anon talking about Kanako: a god doing what is good for humans, but ultimately only because she wants faith.

2) Phenomenology
The phenomenologist says that only (all) experience exists. Therefore, all phenomena and experiences relating to spiritual entities must be real. And if those experiences are consistent through time, and common for many people, then the source of those experiences must also be the same. Our experiences must therefore come from our interactions with a common entity. I couldn't really say what those entities are like because as I said before I never had direct interactions with them (and I am grateful for that). But what they would be fighting for is much more sinister than just your brain. They are effectively fighting for your 'attention', which is in fact the object of your free will. Free will does not manifest in the movements of your body, but in the choice of what you direct your attention to. And there would be many parties that are interested in deciding for you what you should be directing your attention towards. Think the extremely obnoxious practices of advertising, but on a cosmic and spiritual level. That is what we're dealing with in this age of occult revival.

>>46941602
Jesus did indeed perform miracles, but he's not unique in that aspect. Many people perform miracles in the bible (and arguably throughout history), so you might say that miracles are a universal human phenomenon. Jesus urged his disciples to go and do even greater things than he had done, and claimed that faith as small as a mustard seed is all you needed.

How I see Jesus in relation to the Atman/Brahman thing is an interesting question. Christian theology can get really complicated also when talking about Jesus being both 100% human and 100% God, which relates back to the trinity that says that the Father and the Son are both God, but they are not equal to each other. So the Father, for example, is not human, while the Son is.

The best way I could put it in words is this: Jesus is what God would be, were God to be a human. Or, Jesus would have the consciousness of God, were God to have a human consciousness. Jesus knew everything about how reality worked, but only from the perspective of a human mind. If he had not the perspective of a human mind, then the whole ordeal of God incarnating himself as a human would be completely pointless.
So I don't think Jesus had a consciousness that was the fullness of Brahman or anything like that. He still had his own existence, but you can see him as the King of all human consciousnesses, the most refined, the purest, however you want to frame it, but still human.
All of that also implies that you can easily ("easily") be like Christ, and in fact that is what Christians (and everyone) are called to do.

By the way, thanks everyone for asking me questions and letting me explain a few things about my perspective. God knows I'd be called all kinds of slurs were I to post this on /x/ or wherever.

>>46941779
Thanks for sharing such well articulated thoughts with us, my own personal relationship with christianity is a rather complicated one, since "faith" is almost like a tool of sorts as much as it is a guiding principle, and while christianity makes for a great "framework" to operate with, many of the dogma and principles within it are quite restrictive, which make it counter productive to many of more "occult" concepts, i myself still get some mental backlash when doing things that could be considered opposed to it during the process of research (Goetia, dealing with foreign gods, etc.)

>>46941692
>Think of the anon talking about Kanako:
Hi, that was me as well. I'll say personally I don't think either of these perspectives feel like they'd capture the full thing, but that admittedly is a somewhat vibes-based conjecture. Naturalism, at least, definitely isn't exactly the case, as even before getting into spiritual matters, modern science has been gradually disproving the idea of the universe being reducible to >just< matter. On the other hand, Phenomenology feels like it may veer too far into solipsistic territory, but admittedly it's fuzzy enough in general that I can't really comment further on that.

>>46941602
>I think mine is starting come more from a kind of Buddhist idea of that if there is less difference between me and them and them and us
Considering the number of instances in which schizophrenic 'hallucinations' have manifested as ancestor spirits, not to mention the common grounds in mythology of humans becoming such spirits, such as oni, tengu, or in a case with Abrahamic religion, I believe it was Metatron (or possibly Sandalphon, my memory is imperfect) that was originally a human.
This is of course before you factor in that just a decent appreciation of Chaos Theory carries with it the oftentimes difficult to digest reality that the average person has a lot more power and influence than they'd be comfortable being aware of.
>Anyway, in Shinto there is an idea that scorned kami can turn into youkai, so easy to see where that one is coming from.
That was effectively what Kourin said in that chapter as well, if a Kami ends up only being viewed as a threat or monster, it essentially becomes a Youkai.
>Consider exploring magic further.
Honestly this thread has reminded me to finish reading the Corpus Hermeticum and bother to go read the Asclepius as well. Dunno yet where I would go after that. Would you be alright if I asked for a bit of elaboration on what you believe you did wrong with your initial attempts to make contact with the aforementioned entities?

>>46941692
>We don't exactly see kami walking around.
Yeah, but originaly kami were apparently more or less completely abstract - some "power" of natural phenomena or place. But in the broader context of the supernatural, I understand the point.
>Therefore the most successful memes are actually those that cooperate in harmony with our psychology
In the long term, yeah. In the short term, absolutely awful things could ravage the world, like some spiritual pandemic. Hmmm.
>So the best Gods are those that are the best for humans
This does very well lead to my personal experience and thoughts about the matter - kind of like beneficial microbiome outcompeting a harmful one - but since we are talking about deities, it's more like hyper-macro-organisms, and they have extremely rich internal lives compared to gut bacteria. Or even humans.
>a god doing what is good for humans, but ultimately only because she wants faith
This goes against my personal experience somewhat, but I think it is a somewhat valid way to conceptualize it. That type of trade is a very human metaphor. There are all kind of hybrid systems in nature that have mutualy beneficial supportive relationships built around co-flourishing. I can not argue for it rationaly, but I feel that they have a strong desire for humans to witness them to the fullest possible extent (why exactly, I don't know?), for us to somehow add to the narrative, and they have pushed us along in ways that transcend merely transactional behaviour.
>The phenomenologist says that only (all) experience exists.
Thanks for this, I knew basicaly nothing of phenomenology before this.
>They are effectively fighting for your 'attention', which is in fact the object of your free wil
Interesting.
>And there would be many parties that are interested in deciding for you what you should be directing your attention towards
This relates directly to how obnoxious social media is.
>Think the extremely obnoxious practices of advertising, but on a cosmic and spiritual level
And the spiritual and comic feeding back to obnoxious marking practices...
>>46941779
>Jesus did indeed perform miracles, but he's not unique in that aspect. Many people perform miracles in the bible (and arguably throughout history)
Yeah, true, you are absolutely right with that, I forgot that aspect of Christianity.
>Jesus knew everything about how reality worked, but only from the perspective of a human mind.
Very, very interesting view!
What are some of the particulars that have led you to this?
>By the way, thanks everyone for asking me questions and letting me explain a few things about my perspective. God knows I'd be called all kinds of slurs were I to post this on /x/ or wherever.
Well, you have a very valuable and interesting perspective, and you have been respectful towards others.
>>46941876
>many of the dogma and principles within it are quite restrictive
...and the execution in reality is often absolutely terrible, whether it's American megachurches worshipping monster trucks and pyrotechnics (how typhonian!!) or North European protestant churches which are completely void of spirit and function as some sort of bureacracy of birth, marriage and death. There a good monotheistic people though, even in adverse, spiritualy misguided or dead conditions, I'll say that though.
>which make it counter productive to many of more "occult" concepts
The biggest one IMO is conceptualizing everything as "demons". Was it Thomas Aquinas who said something about thousands of demons everywhere? He might have been right if he had talked about daimons instead.
>doing things that could be considered opposed to it during the process of research
Have you studied the very explicitly Christian branches of the esoteric? I own a copy of the translation of the Arbatel, even though I am not Christian. I find it utterly fascinating - very slim late medieval/early modern tome. It's basicaly "if you are a good enough dude who is helpful to his community you can use these few astrological principles to ask God to send you angels to teach you, and if he wants so, you will then learn". Astonishingly different from what is usualy thought as occult and esoteric content.

>>46936704
They knew but most did not understand why. For instance, you say people belived that they understood that sun would always rise every day, but that isn't always the case actually. If you were to put such person and unbeknownst to them put them near one of the poles on Earth then either the sun would never fall or never rise in what could be perceived as gods wrath and the end times to them. To us today its trivial thanks to our understanding of the science and astronomy but if you were to put a ignorant peasant from medieval or ancient times they would think the world has come to an end, the very thing that they were certain in the world flipped on its head and with it the ground the stand on no longer feeling certain.
And since nothing can be understood perfectly to the absoule then we also at any moment can end up just as that peasant, abruptly and most often uprepared plunged into situatuions beyond our comprehension; and people fear what they don't understand and comprehend; that's why its dangerous; if done correctly you could plant an unkillable weed of doubt and fear in someones mind that can be nearly irrefutable. Such particular type of apprehension can be disruptive if not even fatal to more feeble and untrained minds.

There needs to be a better place to talk and compile these discussions

>>46942337
When the anons here learn to astral project and host a psychic forum for discussion 2hoe and its implications for mysticism we'll compile it in the noosphere.

>>46942337
You can always take screencaps of the posts you like, even compile them in neat infographics so you can post them in future threads, whenever they appear.

>>46942111
>the average person has a lot more power and influence than they'd be comfortable being aware of
This is true even on an extremely flat, banal level too. We have a lot of power in how we carry ourselves in our daily lives. How do we act towards our fellow people, animals, plants? Do we succumb to temptations or try to think long term? Do we blindly repeat the past or try to learn from it? How do we perceive events that unfold in front of us? Do we just react or do we reflect on them? What kind of narratives we construct? Do we sink into despair or see crisis as an opportunity, painful experiences as catharsis? It can be hard, extremely hard, but we have real, genuine power to do things differently that alone in itself can feel magical.

And in certain situations, even without wielding any kind of "magic", you can do things that really feel like they bend reality around a bit. Being in the right place at the right time, talking to the right person the right way can turn your life around completely.

Imageboards are an interesting places when it comes to this, I think they sit at the intersection of this type of mundane "magic" and something more.
>finish reading the Corpus Hermeticum
It's extremely fascinating. I think you could do with something practical and accessible though.
>Would you be alright if I asked for a bit of elaboration on what you believe you did wrong with your initial attempts to make contact with the aforementioned entities?
Well, I wasn't back then trying to contact the kami. I hadn't even played any Touhou games back then. My first foray into the occult started about six years ago. I got into it via paranormal research.

I basicaly fucked everything up. I tried to prove to myself with extreme haste and urgency that the supernatural is real. I had no real aims beyond that. I mixed incompatible stuff from different traditions. I was in a terrible headspace. I was really drawn to very "edgy" materials but also exposed to other material contradicting such. I tried using magic to influence other people

However, the one, final crowning absolute total complete idiot mistake after which the bad times really begun was: I made an attempt at summoning spirits without specifying who, when and where I wanted to appear. I walked into the woods, in a really fucking awful headspace, a snap reaction to an unpleasant event, burned some precious things after showing them into a space formed by tree roots and basicaly said "hey spirits, it's me, ya boi, please show yourselves".

And they sure did show themselves.

With the kami, I basicaly panicked after I realized that I am dealing with a genuine spiritual phenomena, especially after someone told me that I'm dealing with entities hostile to humans. They didn't even do anything bad to me. There were no constant sleep paralysis experiences, no constant barrage of hellish imagery, no weird minor paranormal activity, just two nightmares and some slightly scary mental imagery that felt more like they were annoyed and frustrated with me than that they were hateful or wanted to hurt me.

At this point eclipseanon told me that my subconscious is being overwhelmed from them recognizing that I recognize them and advised me to try to make contact. I made contact with them, we talked things over. They still communicate to me via dreams every now and then, but they are polite enough to do it just before I wake up instead of shouting into my ear in the middle of night.

Regarding the mental images, as I've said before in this thread, I have extremely hard time generating mental images on my own, and during both of the times I have been contact with spiritual entities one key manifestation has been extremely vivid mental imagery accompanied by a kind of transmission of information or sentiment. With the kami sometimes when I ask them simply yes or no questions I can faintly "hear" them, a bit like how your brains sometimes generate random garbage noises when falling asleep. The activity overall has toned down, I think this is a sign that they are satisfied with status quo for now.

Fun fact, the kami manifest in extremely colorful mental imagery, and the hostile spirits six years ago projected mental imagery that was mostly different shades of blues. Sometimes the kami appear as anime girls, sometimes in more abstract forms, like their outlines made out of colorful glowing wireframes or circuit board like structures. Coolest one was Okina which looked like she was made out of plasma, complete with the stars on her tabard looking like real stars.

>>46942337
Some other imageboard perhaps? /x/ is lousy.

>>46942533
The reason I never try/tried to contact spirits is precisely because of your experience. If they aren't real, it doesn't matter but you look like a fool. If they are real, then you are summoning whatever the fuck entities happen to take an interest in your little display and it probably won't end well.

I came to the conclusion they are real through reason and contemplation, instead of direct experience, and I think I'm happy with that status quo. Don't think a relationship with an entity would offer me anything good.

>>46942318
Surely a sufficiently catastrophic psychological or physical event could shake our foundations. But that's not necessary. I'm talking about a sort of revival, a true enlightenment that lets us see the incomprehensible beauty and mystery of the universe, like we used to through God or gods. To replace the false self-assuredness of "knowing" with the paradoxical yet psychologically vivifying certainty that what you see is only usually what you get.
Socrates said: "I know that I know nothing." To be certain of uncertainty, that's enough, and it's closer to the truth than any scientific theory can reach. It's the paleolithic spiritual diet.

>>46942533
>mundane "magic"
That could be its own discussion frankly, especially considering how self-talk, language, and certain chemical interactions can fundamentally rewire the brain.
>I think you could do with something practical and accessible though.
For as much as I have interest in the occult, I'll be quick to admit I have basically zero idea of where to start in terms of practical application.
>basicaly said "hey spirits, it's me, ya boi, please show yourselves".
Sounds unpleasant to experience, but described this way honestly kinda funny. The way you speak of it, unironically the answer was just to double-down and go on with it.

I suppose if I take any interest in attempting anything remotely similar, my first concern would simply be ensuring I can distinguish between my own thoughts, and any external influences.

>>46942647
To each their own, of course, but your worries are partly the reason that structured ritual instructions and the like exist. So you don't end up in the spiritual equivalent of Times Square during rush hour, screaming "Anybody and everybody, mess with me because I want results!"

There are obviously the imposter types, and the ones that show up claiming to help only to then lie, but that's what the various methods of protection are for.

One thing to note, speaking of the Renaissance period and earlier views on demons vs daimon/daemon, is that even the idea of the succubus isn't fully "bad", even removing the huge mess that is the succubus general (and I'm not planning on getting into that). By this, I am trying to refer to the older ideas and concepts of what makes something "bad" or not, namely that one succubus that was in a relationship with a priest that, if I remember correctly, he went on to become a pope(?) and she repented near the end or something. I would provide more information, but because the modern internet is inundated with non-relevant, low class garbage, it's virtually impossible to search anything of value without knowing the exact key phrase to find it, and even then you have to filter through the mountains of crap to get to a paywall or "subscription". Forgive me, I'm just an older guy that misses when information was free, much less unbiased, and generally intelligent. Rant over.

>>46942647
>The reason I never try/tried to contact spirits is precisely because of your experience
Very valid, but keep in mind that what I did was basicaly every possible thing wrong.
>If they are real, then you are summoning whatever the fuck entities happen to take an interest in your little display and it probably won't end well
Which is exactly why there is an etiquette for this and precautions and you are supposed to throughly think about what you are about to summon and what they might want in return. Like it doesn't have to be anything nefarious - an offering to a deity you are trying to contact is the norm.

With the kami, I didn't explicitly try to summon them. It was more that I started having really intense feelings to them, I had difficulty figuring out what exactly, but eventually settled to something like "they represent powerful archetypes that have features I would like to cultivate in myself".

It rolled out from there. By the time I was thinking stuff like "Keiki-sama would be really happy if I start drawing" or "Keiki-sama would be really disapointed in me if I eat too much today" I was basicaly calling for their attention.

In tandem I started becoming more and more aware and knowledgeable of the real life religions connected to Touhou and at some point it crossed over to them making themselves known to me.

It was basicaly an accident and when I talked to them the first time I felt like they were really confused too, surprised that someone had been able to perceive them like I did.
>Don't think a relationship with an entity would offer me anything good.
I understand, and that is perfectly valid. My current experience is different. I feel like they have a lot to offer and have already offered. Like I said, it feels like they are outcompeting bad influences from my life and supporting me. Sometimes their manifestations are just really nice too in itself, comforting and supporting.

>>46942393
We're already compiling them in the noosphere! Records are already in the archives of numerous mind-fortresses, digital and biological.

>>46942728
>To be certain of uncertainty, that's enough, and it's closer to the truth than any scientific theory can reach.
A certain element of "I don't have to know everything" can be very healthy too.
>>46942738
>especially considering how self-talk, language, and certain chemical interactions can fundamentally rewire the brain.
Yes, very much so, and there are many who say that such is the essence or all there is to magic. I personaly think some of them are a bit insincere about it. Saying it's "all in your imagination, but so is so much of else". But they never quite say who is "you" or "imagination". A rhetorical tactic to make the mystical more palatable, perhaps.
>I'll be quick to admit I have basically zero idea of where to start in terms of practical application.
I am currently looking around for a good structured program to restart my practice properly again. In the meantime, I am working with the Magickal Protection from Gallery of Magic. The book series has a very mixed reputation, this one in particular is scoffed at as "baby magic", but it's exactly why I started again with it. Someone in the "esoteric scene" that I respect greatly and whom I believe has their heart in the right place (probably the most important quality in a human being) recommended it exactly because it's "baby magic".

It's accessible, the rituals are doable for people with zero experience and it doesn't involve any unwholesome entities (unless you really hate angels for some reason I suppose?). And most importantly, it teaches something very, very important: protection. Of course, it's important not to overdo it and get paranoid. I also asked the kami for their permission before I started doing it. Which is why now that I am doing the bigger 33 day ritual in it which involved invoking "personified virtues" I am also giving particular attention to the kami so they don't feel left out. Everyone more experienced in the audience is now allowed to laugh at me.

One book I used back in the day six years ago which I could mostly recommend to others was Ogdoadic Magic. The organization on which it's system is based on however later developed a creepy, elitistic cult vibe. I think some of the breathing practices involved with the meditation excercises from it made me kinda dizzy from what I remember.

Beyond that, I have started meditating again (very good even for non-magic purposes) and keeping a journal of things that crop up while meditating. I also keep a dream journal.

Tarot is a great system for really developing a sense of the archetypes from a western POV.
>Sounds unpleasant to experience, but described this way honestly kinda funny.
I see the humor in it myself later on. There were some really tragicomic stuff along the way. A totaly botched ritual in the forest at night where the candles got blown out and I was left scared shitless in the dark, me jerking off on to sigils scribled on paper to "activate" them and then hastily burning them off in the backyard of the apartment complex where I used to live...
>The way you speak of it, unironically the answer was just to double-down and go on with it.
With the kami, yes. A lot stress came out from the tension of experiencing it but not wanting to see it as real even when it was happening. They got annoyed partly because some of the stuff I had posted, partly because I was refusing to pick up the phone so to say.
>>46942766
>partly the reason that structured ritual instructions and the like exist.
I can't understate how absolutely wrong I did everything on the first try.
>There are obviously the imposter types, and the ones that show up claiming to help only to then lie, but that's what the various methods of protection are for.
Yeah this is a spooky aspect of it all. I have a feeling that the impostor types like impostor people though.
>>46942790
So true!

I want to go to Gensokyo. I want to go to Gensokyo. I want to go to Gensokyo

>>46942965
>Saying it's "all in your imagination, but so is so much of else".
From a neuroscience perspective, that's technically not incorrect. That also gets into matters of solipsism that I'm going to resist going on a whole diatribe about, as that's more general philosophy than 2hu-adjectent esotericism.
>Magickal Protection from Gallery of Magic.
Damon Brand's thing, I'm guessing? I may give it a look later, through entirely legal means, of course. I presume you'd argue a connection between the personified virtues mentioned and the mentioned kami, or perhaps I misunderstand?
>Beyond that, I have started meditating again (very good even for non-magic purposes) and keeping a journal of things that crop up while meditating. I also keep a dream journal.
Frankly the former is something I ought to do myself, regardless of mysticism. Unfortunately the self-reinforcing cycle of restlessness isn't an easy thing to break. Likewise, to a lesser extent, with the dream journal.
>Tarot is a great system for really developing a sense of the archetypes from a western POV.
Guess I'll have to puzzle out what archetypes are most compatible with the Reversed Hanged Man in that case.
>partly because I was refusing to pick up the phone so to say.
And maybe get an 'answering machine' of sorts as well.

>I have a feeling that the impostor types like impostor people though.
Out of curiosity, by this I assume you mean duplicitous people in general?

On a semi-related note, the Nue-poster's experience is one that I will consider cautionary. When there's something I enjoy, taking it apart like a frog on a dissection table is a bad habit of mine, I've spoiled myself on a number of works thanks to that.

I dropped back in to see how the thread had grown, and i'm really happy to see how many new ideas are being thrown around, i believe all of us participating have gotten a lot of inspiration and ideas from here that would be hard to find anywhere else.

>>46931409
>how many gods of learning there are, and how in some cultures they have also been gods of magic
Yes! Clarke's third law states that any sufficiently complex technology is indistinguishable from magic.
>Have you seen the American Gods TV show?
Not yet, thanks for the recommendation!
>What do you think of the various ideas about there being some kind of small-s self and capital S higher Self?
This is a very hard question to answer, i don't know anything that would suggest our souls are stratified, but i wouldn't rule out the possibility either.
>I have also started feeling an unprecedented amount of empathy towards nature
I can relate, connection to the gods makes you see the world as more beautiful, but that beauty goes often highly unappreciated.

>>46932001
>It goes without saying that spirituality isn't necessarily meant to be broadcast, and that yours isn't any less genuine if you choose to keep it to yourself
Yea, esoteric knowledge has it's name for a good reason, it's already pretty hard to come by and sometimes is even guarded (e.g alchemists refusing to reveal their work to the uninitiated) and even if you happened upon a thread like this i can imagine it would probably seem more reasonable to just spend your time doing something else. I mean to someone like me who seeks knowledge for the sake of it this thread is invaluable, but to a lot of people it seems like a waste of time. I don't think it's wrong to refuse to seek certain types of information as we have limited time and resources, but it is wrong to seek information, and then deny it simply based on prejudice. I also agree that there is hardly any interest for an occultist to proselytize or share their findings to a lot of people apart from the ones who are already interested in hearing it.

>>46932636
>being undefined is also being full of potential, since it can mean ANYTHING until it gets "locked down" into a shape / definition
Agreed, this brought to mind how quantum computers arrive at a solution through manipulating the interference of multiple undefined (superpositioned) qubits to give a probabilistic answer. Just like a particle can't have an exact momentum and position at the same time, maybe not being defined too rigidly allows us to have a more certain will in where we end up.

>>46933892
>but "magic and science are the same". They both act as ways for us to comprehend the existence of us and around us, and only in the modern day have we drawn a distinction between the two
Yes, in the past scientists were the esoterics, they studied what was generally thought to be impossible or nonexistent. Understanding the world does not start with asserting your knowledge, it starts with understanding what we don't know, and asking questions.
>As for the schizophrenia topic, one thing I remember reading about was that it's only in the Western world that the "voices" manifest as harmful
This and other mental illnesses are very interesting topics because from a schizophrenics point of view, the hallucinations are as real as anything else, the only way to live 'normally' is to have others confirm what they see and what they don't (some schizophrenics have dogs for this reason, to confirm whether people are actually there or not for example), but if you believe the hallucinations are tricks played by your mind on yourself then surely they will stay as exactly that. That is why it's very understandable why so many schizophrenics are religious. The world to a schizophrenic is much more consistent when viewed through a religious lens, and believing that the hallucinations are spirits for example means they no longer act randomly and simply to trick you, now they have a purpose, a persona, an agenda. And now they can be managed, interacted with. This is another example of how different models can map to similar results. Simply believing that your condition is manageable and that all your hallucinations have a purpose and agenda would likely make it more tolerable, and they would very likely seem to act more that way. Whether or not they actually are spirits or not is not important, since the observations are the same. The problem with a lot of paranoid schizophrenics though is that they also become very fanatical in their beliefs and then might even start acting aggressively towards others.

>>46934458
>It sure does seem that humans somehow keep on stumbling upon similar ideas around the topic time after time...
This is an interesting concept, and what is certain is that a lot of religions share more things than they don't. In my own theory the 'root religion' is really a philosophy that can syncretize all other schools of thought. I think we are still in the process of finding that.

>>46943271
>>Imposter types, etc?

Basically the theory of like attracts like.
You're more likely to have someone or something show up that is similar to "you", so the concept of changing one mindset and "vibrations" to draw in what you want is so important. It's harder to realize you're getting screwed over by "your friend" than you are a stranger, that sort of thing. Then there's always the "more innocent a thing is, the better it is to corrupt it", but with cases like that it's a situation of seeing it from a mile away like the "vampire" people in the x threads that pop up every now and then-"come on, you can trust me. I'm a vampire(lol), now meet me in this back alley so I can drink your blood and I'll "reveal something to you" or whatever." They glow.

You know what they say about things smelling and being too good to be true. There's always a catch with those things that give them away.

>>46934617
>The story of our universe is the building of a towering pillar of recursive complexity
Entropy is the law that a closed system must move towards disorder. Higher disorder means higher total information (since orderly systems are compressible as data). There is also a saying that every time a question is answered it opens up two follow-up questions. Maybe this is a more fundamental aspect of reality than we thought?

>>46934658
>if everyone hallucinates it, then it IS real. And if you hallucinate everyone hallucinating it, that's the exact same thing
Since the only thing we can individually confirm with a 100% certainty is that our observations exist. Those observations and our internal thoughts are all that we can derive reality from, but that doesn't really seem to matter as you said. The universe seems to consider every viewpoint as 'true', since even contradicting viewpoints can be locally accurate.

>>46934723
>These inhuman entities that exist subjectively on human belief are presumably capable of observing the world more objectively than the beings that objectively exist
Hmm yeah, i think an idea that is given form through 'faith' would indeed have a larger viewpoint, in relation to the amount of people who had faith in them. If you were given form from multiple subjective viewpoints you would be the product of those viewpoints so probabilistically closer to the objective, but even then not fully objective.

>>46934723
Yeah we are limited by our capacity to understand and perceive, but we can still seek the impossible. Even if you saw the earth from outer space for the first time, knowing not what you are looking at, with enough observation and pondering you might be able to make out patterns and maybe in time you would have some usable knowledge, though if you were looking for trees i don't know how long it would take you to find them.

>>46934842
>the idea of "information organisms" as a way to talk about "supernatural" or "paranormal" entities
>theories that posit that the base "matter" of existence is information, not the substance
While the 'it from bit' theories are pretty controversial almost all theoretical physicists today think that information is at least a fundamental property of the universe, and that just like matter and energy information cannot be destroyed, but is constantly created through entropy, there have been experiments to prove this but honestly i don't understand in the slightest how they work, if you are interested search "No-hiding theorem". Since information increases constantly maybe the things that are no longer observed or thought of get smudged and faded in the increasing information, though their information also never truly disappears.

>>46935576
>you keep on hearing stuff like "yeah magic runs in my family".
>having a precognitive episode that came true moments later
>invisible entity laying footprints into snow when he was a child
To some extent i think a lot of people have had these experiences, but since they are unexplainable they are rationalized away and forgotten at some point. I might post a few of my own supernatural observations here later.

>>46943927
>Since the only thing we can individually confirm with a 100% certainty is that our observations exist.
That's generally what I was referring to when I mentioned solipsistic stuff. Our understanding of quantum mechanics makes it really weird.
>an idea that is given form through 'faith' would indeed have a larger viewpoint, in relation to the amount of people who had faith in them.
Not even strictly speaking of a larger viewpoint, what I mean is that the way we experience reality lends itself to a decent degree of possible inaccuracy. What we 'live' through in the moment is a complex prediction that tends to be corrected by sensory information. Essentially the brain runs on rollback netcode. Memetic entities like that would not have to deal with the limitations of physical organs, and thus presumably able to perceive reality more accurately.
>with enough observation and pondering you might be able to make out patterns and maybe in time you would have some usable knowledge
Also fair.

What are some of your recent supernatural experiences? Anything long-term like entities/visions/etc?