So, in the end, do you think it was worth?

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Anonymous Mon Jan 10 14:40:14 2011 No.6787176 [Reply] [Original]

So, in the end, do you think it was worth?

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 10 14:43:14 2011 No.6787188 No.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 10 14:43:14 2011 No.6787189 >>6787176 As an ending possibly As a series it was definitely a fun journey

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 10 14:43:14 2011 No.6787191 Being called goats? Yes.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 10 14:45:14 2011 No.6787200 7/10 all in all. Don't regret reading it, I read far worse.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 10 14:49:14 2011 No.6787215 Yes. It was far better than ShitMoon's crap.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 10 14:50:14 2011 No.6787216 it was a fun ride, thats the truth.

Anonymous Mon Jan 10 15:01:14 2011 No.6787256
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Ending made me hate all of it

It was fine until EP VII, sure Chiru writing wasn't exactly amazing and several moments were a trainwreck, but it was overall a fun, nice experience. I had a lot of fun discussing it with /jp/

Then Amnesia Battler came...

I still love Erika, 34, Bern, Will and Lion. Everyone else can fuck themself. It's not like they exist in anything but Battler's head anyway.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 10 18:41:14 2011 No.6788150 bump

Anonymous Mon Jan 10 18:51:14 2011 No.6788181

>>6787256
>fine until EP VII
hahaohwow.jpg
Don't you mean you still had weak hopes it could possibly be good by VII?

VII didn't affect the story in barely any way.
People already knew Beatrice was a foreigner and that the gold was WW loot.
People already knew of Yasu and that Yasu-the-trinity lived as a maid, and one had already been given details of what such life could have been.
The "But Will and Lion are awesome!!" card is also weak as they barely starred in the entire episode.
And people going down fast like that in the end over such silly things after talking about greater things really doesn't compete with anything previously seen in the series, even if one may like Kyrie.

The episode was increadibly weak.
At least 8 had more fresh content even though you may perhaps not like the ending.
But that isn't episode 8's fault entirely in itself, it was a long time since the train started heading in that direction, I believe one would just be naiive if one really expected something else.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 10 19:10:14 2011 No.6788242 I personally think no. If I knew that I'm going to hate Chiru so much then I'd have spent that time reading something else.

Anonymous Mon Jan 10 19:19:14 2011 No.6788265

9/10 for me in the first 4 episodes, it had its balance of hilarity and times where you serious'd the fuck up and slowed down to read having great expectations of chiru

then after that it was just nonstop things happening that couldn't be taken seriously anymore and sat back to finished the ride without thinking too much about it, didn't appreciate it that much

Anonymous Mon Jan 10 19:54:14 2011 No.6788380

Fun ride. I really enjoyed some of the barmy theories and the antics that we got up to trying to figure out just WHAT the fuck was going on.

My favorite fake spoilers are most definately lambdacake, evabatman and incest between kannon and shannon. Let's not forget FATFAT either.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 10 19:57:14 2011 No.6788400 >>6788380 >lambdacake This one is true though. Funny how you have to bring your butthurt in every fucking thread

Anonymous Mon Jan 10 19:58:14 2011 No.6788407
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I had a lot of fun despite shkanon douchebags derailing dozens of threads.

I hope they do more with the fighting game. It's fun but the character selection feels kind of narrow.

Anonymous Mon Jan 10 20:00:14 2011 No.6788416

Yes. I'd rate the series 10/10 just because of how much fun I had with it and trolling threads because of it.

Most of /jp/ is immensely butthurt and doesn't even get what happened at the end, or in the series for that matter, so if people complain I just laugh at them.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 10 20:01:14 2011 No.6788427 >>6788407 >I had a lot of fun despite shkanon douchebags derailing dozens of threads. You mean the guys who were actually RIGHT.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 10 20:02:14 2011 No.6788439 >>6788416 Oh you are such a special little snowflake.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 10 20:04:14 2011 No.6788455 >>6788439 Mad much?

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 10 20:16:14 2011 No.6788505 >>6788416 This.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 10 20:30:14 2011 No.6788574 >>6788400 aww. missed that. did anyone saved those? i was late reading the game.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 10 21:06:14 2011 No.6788716 >>6788181 >VII didn't affect the story in barely any way. It was the Whydunnit. If you were too dense to get that even though it was pounded into your head then I don't know what to say.

Anonymous Mon Jan 10 21:10:45 2011 No.6788728 [DELETED]

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Amazingly enough, I dropped Umineko after Episode 4 because I had a sinking feeling things were headed to shit.

I'm just thankful that none of the episodes proved me wrong.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 10 21:18:14 2011 No.6788755 >>6788728 Except you are wrong.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 10 21:20:14 2011 No.6788767 >>6788755 What a convincing and well thought out argument.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 10 21:32:14 2011 No.6788812 >>6788767 About as much as he is. In general, thinking that out of context spoilers and listing to 4chan, which is notoriously hypernegative about EVERYTHING to decide if something is good or not is a bad idea.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 10 21:33:14 2011 No.6788814 As one of the five people on 4chan who actually read it, yes.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 10 21:40:14 2011 No.6788834 >>6788814 Sup 1/5 buddy. It's been an enjoyable ride to me. I'm a sucker for crazy meta-fiction and things like that. And Umineko is a good example of that. I can understand other people not liking it though.

Anonymous Mon Jan 10 21:53:36 2011 No.6788872 [DELETED]

>>6787176
>It was the Whydunnit.
Eh? You mean the lousy love thing?
That love story wasn't exactly hard to figure out, and in either case, an entire episode wasn't needed if that was it.

The whole "This was Yasu's life as a maid" thing could without doubt had been cut by at least half or something without one really missing anything.

Or are you perhaps talking about the effects of the gold and or the ???? at the end? Even if so, yet again, what was all the other things about?

I know it is among the answer arcs, but it doesn't change how it was almost completely redundant from the previous episodes and from episode 6.
It barely had any fresh content, and almost all it did was repeat things from earlier episodes.

Anonymous Mon Jan 10 21:54:14 2011 No.6788879

>>6788716
>It was the Whydunnit.
Eh? You mean the lousy love thing?
That love story wasn't exactly hard to figure out, and in either case, an entire episode wasn't needed if that was it.

The whole "This was Yasu's life as a maid" thing could without doubt had been cut by at least half or something without one really missing anything.

Or are you perhaps talking about the effects of the gold and or the ???? at the end? Even if so, yet again, what was all the other things about?

I know it is among the answer arcs, but it doesn't change how it was almost completely redundant from the previous episodes and from episode 6.
It barely had any fresh content, and almost all it did was repeat things from earlier episodes.

Anonymous Mon Jan 10 21:55:14 2011 No.6788885

Everytime a good moral or idea come up it was crushed again and again. I tend to latch onto significant phrases ideas and morals or whatever, but every single one was blown out of the water.

Now I seriously don't know what to think. It's turned into a random piece of shit.

Anonymous Mon Jan 10 22:02:14 2011 No.6788912

>>6788879
>That love story wasn't exactly hard to figure out, and in either case, an entire episode wasn't needed if that was it.

The entire motive and REASON for all this is pretty important, if you ask me. Devoting an episode to getting inside her head and understanding the thought process is worthwhile.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 10 22:05:14 2011 No.6788920 >>6788912 I mean, Episode 7 was already shorter then the other episodes.s

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 10 22:05:14 2011 No.6788922 I wonder how many people in this thread actually read EP8. 1? 2?

Anonymous Mon Jan 10 22:07:14 2011 No.6788928

>>6788912
Especially since it seems 70% of the people completely missed the point of getting inside her head. Now think about what would have happen if everyone was left to their own devices with just a passing mention after EP6, where we had to 'figure it out' ourselves.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 10 22:10:14 2011 No.6788933 >>6788879 Nothing was repeated. EP6 was about the conflict between furnitures Will and Yasu talked about, the years 1984-1986 that they skipped in EP7. EP6 was about how they struggled. EP7 was about how they came to be.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 10 22:10:14 2011 No.6788938 It's the most influential visual novel that the western audience has been exposed to, so yes, I think it was worth it.

Anonymous Mon Jan 10 22:14:45 2011 No.6788944 [DELETED]

>>6788933
This. Unfortunately some peoples' brains stop at "HURRR IT'S ABOUT SHKANONTRICE SAME SHIT" instead of realizing you can explore different aspects of the same thing. And I think there's value to actually seeing what happened and Yasu's character portrayed directly to us rather than merely hints you can guess at.

Anonymous Mon Jan 10 22:16:14 2011 No.6788956

>>6788933
This. Unfortunately some peoples' brains stop at "HURRR IT'S ABOUT SHKANONTRICE SAME SHIT" instead of realizing you can explore different aspects of the same thing. And I think there's value to actually seeing what happened and Yasu's character portrayed directly to us rather than merely hints you can guess at.

Anyway, to answer OP's questions, of course. I was kind of disappointed in the ending but the series was entertaining to talk about and had a lot of characters I really liked. Chiru was overall uneven, unfortunately (though still enjoyable). I think Chiru's high points were higher than the question arcs', but the low points were also lower.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 10 22:16:14 2011 No.6788960 Who was the killer anyway?

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 10 22:17:14 2011 No.6788961 >>6788944 Yeah, Episode 7 is interesting in just how direct it is. Every other episode's been filled with embellishments, metaphors, and outright lies, in contrast 7 lays everything out in front of you bare.

Anonymous Mon Jan 10 22:17:14 2011 No.6788966

>>6788912
Usually people don't get ready to kill just because old boyfriends they had as children suddenly re-appears when they are about to get engaged with someone else.

I am saying that the love related things was a clear minority of everything. If they had only done it better they could have done that with at least half the content or less of the episode.
But instead we got, among other things, the magical pranks and adventures of Yasu and Gaap, the chronicles, the re-telling, the play.

>>6788928
You did in no way need that much "content" to get inside her head. It is increadibly easy to immagine how their maid life would have been. It would have been enough to just show a little and mention the rest in summaries of words.
That way they could have focused more on the things more closely related to love. They could have cut the chase faster to the scenes that changed the direction of things such as starting to become interesting in magic and that kind of stuff.
I really do argue that the episode didn't need to be anywhere near as long as it was for one to get inside her head.

Anonymous Mon Jan 10 22:24:14 2011 No.6788984

>>6788966
It wasn't just about her "reasons to kill". It was about everything how Yasu's mindset, her way of taking in reality, and how she came to think of herself as a witch and her beliefs about magic.

I honestly think the EP7 Yasu flashbacks were great and tightly written, if anything. They moved pretty swiftly through all the relevant aspects that would eventually become "Beatrice". And I liked her character. I enjoyed them not just as an information dump, but as a story.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 10 22:25:14 2011 No.6788991 >>6788966 Also people usually don't pretend to be a witch. And they don't pretend to be a boy in love with their best friend.

Anonymous Mon Jan 10 22:26:14 2011 No.6788998
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>>6788427
It's not about who was right. It felt like every single Umineko thread that we had for a long time went to that.

Was Eva the killer in 3? SHKANON
Did Jessica know that Kinzo is dead or she just that stupid? SHKANON
What's wrong with the Anime? SHKANON
Beato is kawaii! SHKANON

It was just repetitive.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 10 22:30:45 2011 No.6789009 >>6788960 Kyrie. Someone poist that Sankan doujin where she murders Battler.

Anonymous Mon Jan 10 22:31:14 2011 No.6789011

>>6788998
And what about the other side?

Hey, what about this evidence? RED HERRING.
So how about that new episode? Proof enough right? STOP INTERPRETING IT IN YOUR BIASED WAY IT IS OBVIOUSLY TOO OBVIOUS TO BE TRUE RED HERRING. SHKANON AT MOST, NOT SHKANONTRICE. MAKES ZERO SENSE HOW COME "SHANNON" AS YOU SAY SAID SHE WOULD GIVE THE HEADSHIP TO BEATRICE? SHANNON ISN'T THE HEAD IT WAS OBVIOUSLY JESSICA
How about this one? SO IT'S KANONTRICE NOT SHKANONTRICE

Anonymous Mon Jan 10 22:34:14 2011 No.6789027

>>6788984
>It wasn't just about her "reasons to kill"
Never really meant to imply that it was.

>Yasu flashbacks were great and tightly written, if anything
Really? It was at least at least 80% of the entire episode, and the length of the episode was sort-of-ish like that of the other ones.
For an example, why was multiple scenes with Gaap messing with her stuff needed? And why did they need to stretch the arc where the maids had trouble with that key on the keyring disappearing.
Etc etc
They also went over the workings of the entire Fukuin House operation and other similair things that has already been mentioned. How they got to handle school etc etc.

Anonymous Mon Jan 10 22:34:14 2011 No.6789028
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>>6789011
I didn't have a problem with the theory. It was that every single discussion would eventually come to it even in thread unrelated to solving the mystery. It which was annoying enough to the point to where people would pull stuff like that in an attempt to make supporters shut up.

The only thing worse was MOON CHAN, which was wrong. In the end Kyrie was the killer.

Anonymous Mon Jan 10 22:42:14 2011 No.6789061

>>6789027
>For an example, why was multiple scenes with Gaap messing with her stuff needed?
What multiple scenes? There was the first scene where she "met" Gaap, with the missing broom, which was obviously important. There was the scene where Gaap "possessed" Yasu with the key trick, which was also obviously important. The only other things I can think of are when Yasu uses the "magic" Kumasawa taught her to outsmart Gaap and gain confidence in herself, which seemed relevant to me, and when she's talking to Gaap about mystery novels--also relevant in explaining how Yasu thinks about things and what shaped her mindset to the features central to Umineko. All of it was important.

>And why did they need to stretch the arc where the maids had trouble with that key on the keyring disappearing.
What do you mean by stretching? It showed what happened. And it showed the maids' reactions, key to both showing how Yasu took in the power that magic could grant her, and how the legend of the witch Beatrice spread even further around Rokkenjima, leading to the current setting. Again, to me, it was tightly-written. Relevant information portrayed in an interesting way, and then it moved on.

Anonymous Mon Jan 10 22:43:14 2011 No.6789066

>>6789061
>They also went over the workings of the entire Fukuin House operation and other similair things that has already been mentioned. How they got to handle school etc etc.
No, not really? I actually thought the workings of Fukuin House were kept pretty vague. Like, what details are you talking about? The stuff about the arrangement of the rooms didn't have that much time spent on it, and it was relevant to understanding what was going on with Yasu and Shannon. That Kinzo and Genji mostly handled the stuff with Fukuin? Relevant to Natsuhi and Krauss's attitudes to the weird stuff with Yasu in general. It was mentioned briefly that Yasu went to school with Jessica when not going to work. That took a couple of lines at most and it seemed decently important-ish flavor to me to get a sense of the rhythm of Yasu's life.

Anonymous Tue Jan 11 02:49:14 2011 No.6789914

>>6788956
>This. Unfortunately some peoples' brains stop at "HURRR IT'S ABOUT SHKANONTRICE SAME SHIT" instead of realizing you can explore different aspects of the same thing. And I think there's value to actually seeing what happened and Yasu's character portrayed directly to us rather than merely hints you can guess at.

We don't want to do this because Yasushannontrice is shit

Anonymous Tue Jan 11 03:01:14 2011 No.6789943
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>>6788998

That's because there is nothing else to discuss. There never was.
We kept deluding ourself over and over, that there was something we missed, some amazing detail but there truth is: Shkanon, the bomb, one of the adult go crazy. That's all.

Also, everything else it's so badly pieced together and covered in a so thick fog that it's impossible to tell really happened most of the time. (like ep III-IV twilights)

I was one of those fanboy that keep defending Umineko and Yasu, thinking there was more, that ep VIII would have pieced everything together in a spectacular and satisfactory truth. But it was bullshit.
The train now crashed and the trainwreck was terrific.

On a complete different note, Kiri no Pithos remix is a a beautiful song

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_K-T3HqxJ0

Anonymous Tue Jan 11 03:42:14 2011 No.6790025

As a story it was fun (at the very least, for the first 5 episodes - the final 3 were rather boring for me - EP8 was rather fun, but the damage had already been done, so, I couldn't enjoy as much as I could have). However, due to the premise, I was looking for more than just fun, but an intellectual challenge.

Of course, this is from the same guy who did Higurashi, and I should have known better, but I really did want to give him a second chance. However, in the end, I found everything relating to the mystery to be half assed - the culprit (and how it worked - I'm honestly not reading a mystery novel to try to figure out the author's own subjectivity), its motive, etc. I was even more disappointed when we were told we couldn't know what actually happened in the island.

I liked the thematic, though. I tend to enjoy these post-modernistic ideas. However, I don't like them mixed with with mystery novels. I actually read two post-modern mysteries before, and I didn't like them. They were awesome reads, but shit mysteries in my opinion.

If I had to give values:
EPs 1-5: 9/10
EPs 6-7: 4.5/10
EP8: 7.5/10

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 11 03:48:14 2011 No.6790044 >>6790025 >Of course, this is from the same guy who did Higurashi, and I should have known better, but I really did want to give him a second chance. Out of curiosity, did you read Higurashi novels?

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 11 03:50:14 2011 No.6790052 >>6790025 Umineko isn't a mystery. This should've been clear to you the moment episode 2 rolled around. It's still a trainwreck, though.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 11 03:52:26 2011 No.6790055 >>6790025 >EP8: 7.5/10 >EPs 6-7: 4.5/10 Opinion disregarded.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 11 03:53:14 2011 No.6790057 >>6790052 >Umineko isn't a mystery. Retarded justification.

Anonymous Tue Jan 11 03:55:14 2011 No.6790062

>>6790057
I wasn't justifying anything. It's a convoluted mess of a trainwreck that focuses on the superfluous to the exclusion of character development and coherent plot. I was simply telling him that Umineko isn't a mystery.

You should really learn to read what people type.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 11 04:00:14 2011 No.6790078 >>6790062 I wasn't attacking you, i was attacking R07 half-assed justification "it isn't a mystery durr durr" It came out wrong thought.

Anonymous Tue Jan 11 04:01:14 2011 No.6790087

>>6790052
>This should've been clear to you the moment episode 2 rolled around.

Metafiction didn't make it any less of a mystery. Our job was to see through the layers of falsity and find what's underneath. That could have perfectly worked as a mystery.

R07 simply couldn't pull it off.

I'll admit that, by EP8, you could hardly call this a work pertaining to the mystery genre, but by the first four episode, you could definitely treat it as such.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 11 04:04:14 2011 No.6790093 >>6790078 I apologize for interpreting it as such, then. Guess I should've taken it easier.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 11 04:04:14 2011 No.6790094 >>6790044 Yes, I did, all of them, last year. Why?

Anonymous Tue Jan 11 04:07:14 2011 No.6790100

>>6790087
>2. No willful tricks or deceptions may be placed on the reader other than those played legitimately by the criminal on the detective himself.

A piece of work can still be considered a mystery even if it is in violation of many of these rules, but I honestly find them to be good, sensible guidelines for a proper mystery novel.

Anonymous Tue Jan 11 04:09:14 2011 No.6790107
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>>6790087
> Our job was to see through the layers of falsity and find what's underneath.
Ryukishi hid the truth of Beatrice's motives in plain sight in Episode 3, and pretty much everybody ignored it because of the troll right afterwards. You can't automatically assume that the upper layers are going to be false.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 11 04:11:14 2011 No.6790109 >>6790100 The problem is these deceptions were also played on (Meta) Battler, who was the detective. So, I believe Umineko fit the bill on that regard.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 11 04:11:14 2011 No.6790110 >>6790107 Well, minus the whole promise part, but we got that in Episode 4. Though the promise itself was actually stated blatantly in Episode 3, by Shannon.

Anonymous Tue Jan 11 04:11:26 2011 No.6790114 [DELETED]

>>6790100
Don't much like "servant can't be culprit lol".

I don't see how this has a bearing on the mystery. It's no longer the golden age of detective fiction, any past cliches are irrelevant.

If there's a servant there, you should treat them as a suspect. Of course, they need a good motive, but this applies to everyone. Otherwise you may as well not have servants because they're just filler characters people will overlook because no self-respecting writer would have them as culprits.

There are a bunch of other rules that don't fly with me, but most are good guidelines, you're right.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 11 04:12:14 2011 No.6790115 >>6790109 And if you take the approach that Beatrice is the culprit of the mysteries she wrote, she works as the culprit for that even if she wasn't the culprit on the original Rokkenjima.

Anonymous Tue Jan 11 04:13:14 2011 No.6790118

>>6790107
I'm not saying everything is false. By looking underneath, I mean, finding what's beneath the lies. It was our job to see what were lies and what things were not lies.

>>6790109
>on (Meta) Battler, who was the detective

Along Piece Battler, of course.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 11 04:13:14 2011 No.6790119 Wow, I didn't know so many people are fluent in japanese on /jp/.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 11 04:14:14 2011 No.6790120 >>6790087 1-4 = mystery 5-8 = fantasy I liked Chiru more than question arcs because I'm not a butthurt mysteryfag.

Anonymous Tue Jan 11 04:17:14 2011 No.6790129

>>6790118
> It was our job to see what were lies and what things were not lies.
The problem is that too many people got trolled by the EP3 ending and dismissed a lot of what we're told about Beatrice, magic, and the like as lies, which screws up the whole lie/not-lie thing.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 11 04:19:26 2011 No.6790132 >>6790129 Some people were so buttdevastated by that they thought Beato was still trolling in 5 onwards.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 11 04:21:14 2011 No.6790136 >>6790120 >I liked Chiru more than question arcs because I'm not a butthurt mysteryfag. It's about being a mysteryfag, it's about how much the story is good. And Chiru was mostly meta, but still about the mystery

Anonymous Tue Jan 11 04:21:14 2011 No.6790137

Correct me if I'm wrong, but, uh, didn't a lot of people actually have a lot of the right ideas by the end of Episode 4? I mean, there were a whole bunch of disparate theories back then, but pretty much all of them had some element of the whole truth in them. The Pony theory, the Taiwan theory, Shannontrice, Kanontrice, Shkanon...

Anonymous Tue Jan 11 04:23:14 2011 No.6790143

>>6790137
Indeed. In the end, people actually DID sort out the lies from the truth. It's just that most of those who did didn't like the truth they found.

...Heh, like how Ange wanted to know the truth, and then refused to accept it when she learned it.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 11 04:24:14 2011 No.6790145 >>6790137 Yes, although the Taiwan Theory showed up by EP5, if I'm not mistaken.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 11 04:26:14 2011 No.6790147 >>6790137 Shkanontrice started as a joke theory thought..

Anonymous Tue Jan 11 04:27:14 2011 No.6790148

>>6790129
That's because many people simply jumped on the "deny the witch" bandwagon, without actually trying to think even further.

>>6790120
Fun enough, I started as a Pro-Fantasy fag, but ended turning to Mystery since Fantasy was obviously not a possibility. What's even more funny is that even on EP8 I'm still denying fantasy - despite Ange and her comments about the Meta-World.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 11 04:28:14 2011 No.6790151 >>6790147 I don't remember ShKanontrice being mentioned before EP6, though. I sure remember ShKanon and Shannontrice, I think I saw Kanontrice once, and there was also Jessitrice. But never the unholy trinity.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 11 04:29:26 2011 No.6790152 >>6790147 >Shkanontrice started as a joke theory thought.. No it didn't. Shkanontrice didn't even exist as a theory until after episode 6, it was immediately a serious theory.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 11 04:30:26 2011 No.6790154 >>6790151 During episode 4 times, Jessitrice was a more common theory than Shannontrice.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 11 04:31:14 2011 No.6790155 >>6790151 The funny thing is, I didn't really like Shannontrice, and was meh on Kanontrice, but went "...I'm okay with this" for Shkanontrice. I guess the mixture of all three took it from being a boring solution to a mindfuck one.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 11 04:33:26 2011 No.6790158 >>6790155 I was a strong believer in Kanontrice because you had to stretch it pretty far to have anyone but Kanon being the murderer of the last 5 deaths in episode 1.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 11 04:34:14 2011 No.6790160 >>6790155 "This is so much shit I like it."?

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 11 04:35:14 2011 No.6790161 >>6790148 Meta is 100% confirmed. Beato's doll is the final proof.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 11 04:35:14 2011 No.6790163 >>6790158 I BELIEVED ON SMALL BOMBS. Beat that fag.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 11 04:36:14 2011 No.6790164 >>6790155 Oh, also, the fact that 1) they were still treated as different "people", and 2) the hints that none of them were originals, not even Shannon. And then, of course, came Episode 7 and Yasu.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 11 04:37:14 2011 No.6790166 >>6790161 I know about it. I'm just taking the final scenes as yet another fiction, precisely for things like Ange going from real world to Meta throughout the episode, her having Meta knowledge and the Beato doll was the final straw.

Anonymous Tue Jan 11 04:38:14 2011 No.6790168

No. Ryukishi is a terrible writer who can't keep his ideas properly organized. But instead of learning to construct coherent narrative, he's just jammed as much crap together as he possibly can, using the episodic structure of Umineko and the cover of "it's a mystery!" to compensate for not actually being able to link any of his shit up.

I wanted to give him a chance again, but he's failed so completely.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 11 04:38:26 2011 No.6790167 Ange shooting Amakusa is the best part. Trick end = best end.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 11 04:39:14 2011 No.6790171 >>6790151 >>6790152 Well, then, i must be delusional, because i clearly remember many Shannon=Kanon jokes and "lol, Shannon is a trap" threads

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 11 04:39:14 2011 No.6790173 >>6790166 Then all the scenes previously in the episode indicating the existence of a Hachijou Touya separate from the Hachijou we knew were fictions as well? I'm pretty sure Ange had no involvement in those.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 11 04:39:26 2011 No.6790172 >>6790168 You people keep saying you wanted to give him another chance, but I bet you read Umineko first and Higurashi only after it was translated by mangagamer. Probably only watched the anime.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 11 04:40:14 2011 No.6790175 >>6790151 >>6790152 http://green-oval.net/cgi-board.pl/a/thread/26228859

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 11 04:41:26 2011 No.6790176 >>6790171 Shannon = Kanon yes, Shannon = Kanon = Beatrice, no. Funny nobody put them together, despite Shannontrice and Shkanon both being well known theories. Shannontrice + Shkanon + Pony + Taiwan would have been pretty spot on.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 11 04:42:26 2011 No.6790179 File: 12 KB, 188x209, 1247695528562.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>6790176 >Kanon=Shannon is unrelated to Pony Theory

Anonymous Tue Jan 11 04:43:14 2011 No.6790184

>>6790176
>Shannon = Kanon yes, Shannon = Kanon = Beatrice, no. Funny nobody put them together, despite Shannontrice and Shkanon both being well known theories. Shannontrice + Shkanon + Pony + Taiwan would have been pretty spot on.

We were just deluding ourself into a decent answer.
It's pretty obvious now.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 11 04:43:14 2011 No.6790185 >>6790173 I believe it was fiction as well. Although, if we were to take out Ange's involvement, I may believe it. All the same, I wouldn't take it as a truth with 100% certainity, since we've seen the future several times, and it was always fictional.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 11 04:45:14 2011 No.6790190 File: 419 KB, 640x480, 1294369157809.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>6790175 http://green-oval.net/cgi-board.pl/a/thread/26189167 Oh god, this is all so fun right now

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 11 04:46:14 2011 No.6790191 >>6790185 Which means that everything in Umineko is fiction within fiction and we might as well say it's all equally real which means that if you treat the meta world as real you may as well treat the ???? and such as real also.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 11 04:47:14 2011 No.6790195 >>6790191 No, I believe there's a real world, but we've never seen it.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 11 04:47:14 2011 No.6790196 File: 25 KB, 222x212, UnaDl.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>6790190 >Shannon is lesbian and gay at the same time

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 11 04:47:14 2011 No.6790197 >>6790190 > Umineko will end with Lambdadelta and Bernkastel getting Master Sparked. ...That actually wasn't too far off.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 11 04:48:14 2011 No.6790204 >>6790197 >Shanon is the child of Kinzo and Kumasawa. Hence why she was raised in the mansion since she was very young. This to..

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 11 04:48:26 2011 No.6790202 >>6790190 >Shannon is Kanon is Battler is Beatrice is Jessica is Marisa Well, almost.

Anonymous Tue Jan 11 04:50:14 2011 No.6790208

>>6790195
No, but see, if you go with thinking that all Ange scenes are fictional, then there's no guarantee that Hachijou Touya was really the one writing the stories in-universe, and thus for all we know there never really were bottle letters to begin with and it all took place in the Meta World, with the seemingly-real-world stuff simply being a higher (or lower) level of Meta.

Anonymous Tue Jan 11 04:51:26 2011 No.6790215 [DELETED]

I wish I could go back in time and present the actual truth in Umineko (maybe with some minor changes) as a theory.

Nobody would believe me. But I'd keep posting it everywhere. I'd point out the little bits of evidence you can only really see in hindsight.

I think it would be funny to see how it edges closer and closer to my "theory" as the episodes went on.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 11 04:52:14 2011 No.6790217 >>6790208 Indeed, that may hold true as well. However, I don't believe in a Meta-World. You can if you want to, but I'm not buying that.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 11 04:52:14 2011 No.6790218 File: 184 KB, 480x480, 2m34vmt.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>6790196 >mfw

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 11 04:53:14 2011 No.6790223 >>6790217 Enjoy your cake.

>>	ニューゼロ !!TEBCvIGp/sA Tue Jan 11 04:57:14 2011 No.6790235 sorry that i join late to your tea party but would you mind giving me a short summary of what happens in ep8?

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 11 04:57:14 2011 No.6790237 >>6790223 It's chocolate cake, and I have cookies too. Thank you.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 11 08:01:14 2011 No.6790539 File: 2 KB, 126x84, 1294062785519s.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] Does someone have this? I'vee been looking for this everywhere

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 11 08:02:14 2011 No.6790543 File: 182 KB, 1475x975, 1293888305536.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>6790539

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 11 08:12:14 2011 No.6790567 >>6790543 I am a goat. I hope this means I get to grope Virgilia.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 11 08:16:14 2011 No.6790580 >>6790567 Enjoy your bingbongs and getting punched in the face by Krauss

Anonymous Tue Jan 11 08:16:14 2011 No.6790583

>>6790543
I answered no to all of these. I hate fantasy and tolerate mystery, I can't take it when there is no consistency (that's two noes), and more than anything I hate personality cult.

And I still have hope. I know you all are badmouthing umineko and I didn't read the thread. I still hope that ep8 will leave me satisfied. There.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 11 14:55:14 2011 No.6791560 >>6790583 > I hate fantasy and tolerate mystery > I still hope that ep8 will leave me satisfied It probably won't satisfy you, all things considered.

Anonymous Tue Jan 11 15:39:14 2011 No.6791684

Ryu isn't a writer, he just has good ideas for settings and treats them as games. So when you ask for closure as in every other novel, you are asking to get fucked by an eunuch, only way that's going to happen it's with a strap-on, and it won't feel the same... so yeah, shitty end is bound to happen.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 11 15:45:14 2011 No.6791707 >>6791684 Not the best analogy.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 11 15:50:14 2011 No.6791719 The author says I'm a goat. That wouldn't have been much of problem, if the content had made up for it. If I had paid, I would be somewhat angry.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 11 15:52:14 2011 No.6791726 >>6791684 >asking to get fucked by an eunuch, only way that's going to happen it's with a strap-on you know most eunuchs still have penises, right?

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 11 15:59:14 2011 No.6791750 >>6791726 Some do, ugly deformed and not fully working, others get the full service.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 11 16:01:14 2011 No.6791755 >>6791684 A competent eunuch can make you orgasm, at least. R07 left me with blue balls.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 11 16:02:14 2011 No.6791760 >>6791719 You aren't a goat. The goats weren't the people making the theories, they were the embodiments of the theories themselves.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 11 16:03:14 2011 No.6791767 >>6791750 Not really, most eunuchs just get their balls cut, but can function perfectly otherwise (as in, even have sex).

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 11 16:05:14 2011 No.6791781 >>6791760 As much as you try to make it seem less offensive, it was clearly there to make fun of the readers who didn't behave like the author wanted them to, there's not way around it really.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 11 16:06:14 2011 No.6791784 >>6791767 What was the mortality rate of the surgery, anyway?

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 11 16:10:14 2011 No.6791803 File: 118 KB, 640x480, oh0gab.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>6791684 I don't get this, Higurashi ending was quite beautiful and consistent.

Anonymous Tue Jan 11 16:25:14 2011 No.6791872
File: 354 KB, 1043x1600, Page007.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

You know, after going through all these episodes, I just realized that Beatrice/Battler is really...well sad in a way.

Beato is just Yasu's idea of what Battler's perfect woman is, with the looks of Kuwadorian Beatrice. Battler isn't in love with Yasu or Shannon as much as he is with the image they created. At the end of EP 8 we don't see Yasu or Shannon on the boat, we see Beato.

I know everyone thinks that George stole a letter meant to be given to Shannon, but wouldn't someone notice if he just slipped a letter into his pocket? Shannon was watching the entire time as he passed them around, there's no way she could miss that. The only one who could have taken it was Kyrie, but she has no reason to because she doesn't even care about Battler and what he does with his life.

Thinking about it I don't think I like the pairing anymore. While she didn't kill anybody, Yasu fully intended to set the bomb off and let everyone die. Kyrie and Rudolf just beat her to the punch when they found the gold. Her 'sad life' is being bullied for a couple years by the first servants she arrived with (the maids that looked like Mammon, Beelzebub and Asmodeus appeared to have been friendly with her) and being lovesick over a dumbass 12 year old, but otherwise she doesn't really appreciate the fact that she survived falling off a damn cliff and took her imagination way too seriously. I can't find pity in that.

Feels bad man. Ryukishi made me love this pairing and as he tried to develop it the only thing he showed was how sad it was. Yasu acts like a damsel looking for a white knight and Battler isn't in love with her, but with the image Yasu created to love him.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 11 16:54:14 2011 No.6792057 >>6791872 Yeah, same here. I loved them in Ep1-5, but the quickly became annoying. It's funny how, the characters i didn't like at first like Erika ended up as my favorites instead, and my favorites ended up last.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 11 16:59:14 2011 No.6792083 No BernxBattlerxLambda threesome ending where Battler takes of the island and rules with an iron fist while fucking the stake sisters on the side. Fuck this shit. My dreams were dashed.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 11 17:08:14 2011 No.6792116 >>6791803 The "etc" ruins the whole screen.

Anonymous Tue Jan 11 17:18:14 2011 No.6792150

I still need to read ep 8 but I just want to ask something:

was it explained what happened to Yasu between 1984 and 1986? She seemed kinda disturbed with the whole kinzo thing but was happy with her life and even asked her servants for nothing to change. So then we have a flashback about how she blames them and couldn't love, and suddenly in 1986 she appears in the gold room in an almost catatonic state like she doesn't even care anymore. Are we just supposed to guess what happened and make theories like yasu had a penis/barren womb/whatever and thus became suicidal and wanted to explode everyone unless someone stoped her? What was the reason behind the roulette after all?

That and some sort of motive for Rudolf are the only things I wanted to be satisfied with the ending, battler can be old and amnesiac for all i care

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 11 17:18:14 2011 No.6792153 >>6792150 Also is it true that Kinzo is alive in ep 8?

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 11 17:18:14 2011 No.6792154 >>6791781 > it was clearly there to make fun of the readers who didn't behave like the author wanted them to By showing how the characters in the story would get pissed off at theories that demean them?

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 11 17:19:14 2011 No.6792156 >>6792150 >was it explained what happened to Yasu between 1984 and 1986? Read ep6

Anonymous Tue Jan 11 17:19:14 2011 No.6792158
File: 35 KB, 308x267, 1294395806783.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>6792057
High-five bro.
Erika and Bern ended up being my favourites.
Whilst I seriously loved Battler and Beatrice during the fist five episodes, all the melodrama afterwards made me become rather sick of them.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 11 17:20:14 2011 No.6792163 >>6792153 "Yes", but he is "killed" by Erika's Red stating he is actually dead.

Anonymous Tue Jan 11 17:22:14 2011 No.6792167

>>6792150
It's implied that in those two years the Shannon and Kanon personalities began fighting for dominance, because of their romance with George and Jessica. Yasu explains in EP 7 that if Battler came in 1985, before Shannon decided to get married, or in 1987 when it already happened, then she probably wouldn't have gone to the extremes. But because he came in 1986 the Beatrice personality wanted her love requited too and so she surrendered herself to fate, setup the bomb and all that other crazy crap.

And no, EP 8 gives no motive for Rudolf or Kyrie. Only thing we really get explained is that Rudolf switched the babies because he didn't want anyone finding out about his affair with Asumu (which was already obvious since EP 6 and even before that)

Anonymous Tue Jan 11 17:23:14 2011 No.6792171
File: 163 KB, 640x480, aaaaaaadsdfd.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>6792150

It's not hard, she starts to date George and develop feeling for Kanon. Yasu is a fucking dramawhore who can turn her feeling on and off, apparently. Love duel begins.

I guess, the moment she started seriously dating George she began to question her body, and so she asked Genji and and Nanjo what the fuck happened. Shit ensures.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 11 17:23:14 2011 No.6792172 >>6792156 I finished reading it but I still think that "explode everyone to decide who I love the most" is the worst reason for killing a family ever

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 11 17:24:14 2011 No.6792185 >>6792172 Well that's her reason.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 11 17:25:14 2011 No.6792187 >>6792172 >"explode everyone to decide who I love the most" is the worst reason for killing a family ever Well it's not the reason Maybe you should reread ep7 too

Anonymous Tue Jan 11 17:26:14 2011 No.6792190

>>6792154
Yeah, one of the aspects of Umineko has always been considering the feelings of the characters involved in the story. Hell, back in Episode 5, Battler got fucking PISSED at how Bernkastel and Erika were treating Natsuhi, despite the Natsuhi in question just being a "piece".

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 11 17:28:14 2011 No.6792200 >>6792187 The reason was that she couldn't choose and therefore decided to leave it to fate Kinzo style. That's all.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 11 17:28:14 2011 No.6792202 File: 140 KB, 640x480, fgsdgd.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>6792172 It's more like "i'm tired to fight, so i'd let fate fight for me", witch still stupid, but eh.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 11 17:29:14 2011 No.6792203 >>6792187 >"explode everyone to decide who I love the most, also I may have a broken penis/womb" is the worst reason for killing a family ever fixed for you then

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 11 17:32:14 2011 No.6792214 >>6792200 "explode everyone to decide who I love the most" is still not the reason

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 11 17:32:14 2011 No.6792218 >>6792202 You're now aware that Yasu could have had a happy ending if she had picked the Harem End option I mean, until Kyrie and Rudolf killed everyone

Anonymous Tue Jan 11 17:36:14 2011 No.6792232

>>6792172
Thats the main reason for the fake murder party theory.

It was a game for Battler, since he loved mysteries, the bomb was used as a time limit Kinzo-style. If Battler remenbered his sin; "Hey Shannon, didn't we use to love discussing this kind of thing?", Beatrice would win. But the adults found the gold before the murders, which would be accomplished via bribes, took place. And they fucked things up big time

It's up to you to decide how you see Yasu's story. Most people disagree with this.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 11 17:54:14 2011 No.6792327 File: 810 KB, 1000x1058, Erika 25.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] You are now realizing that Erika is the best character and always was ever since her introduction.

Anonymous Tue Jan 11 18:00:14 2011 No.6792359

>>6792232
The theory falls apart at the 'bomb for a time limit'. That sounds like a pretty dumb thing to do. Why not just make the time limit 'the end of the conference'? Plus, why would some people who are here only to try and get money for their financial problems go along with this? Battler clearly has a bad memory and frankly it doesn't make sense given Will's explanations for all the closed rooms in EP 7.

Anonymous Tue Jan 11 18:21:14 2011 No.6792456

>>6792359
> Why not just make the time limit 'the end of the conference'?
Because that doesn't have enough risk.

> Plus, why would some people who are here only to try and get money for their financial problems go along with this?
That's what the money cards were supposed to be for.

> frankly it doesn't make sense given Will's explanations for all the closed rooms in EP 7.
Because the mysteries of Episodes 1 through 4 were all real murder mysteries. And also all fictional.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 11 18:29:14 2011 No.6792490 File: 33 KB, 853x480, 1257331597011.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] Nihihi~

Anonymous Tue Jan 11 18:31:14 2011 No.6792498

>>6792359
>Why not just make the time limit 'the end of the conference'?
Day 2 at 24:00 is the end of the conference. They are expected to leave the morning after.

>Plus, why would some people who are here only to try and get money for their financial problems go along with this?
Did you even read EP7? Yasu's "magic" is basically bribing people into helping her (pretend to die) with money.

>it doesn't make sense given Will's explanations for all the closed rooms in EP 7.
You didn't really read EP7, did you?
EP1-6 are tales created to hide what the parents did, by making herself the culprit. So in the tales, there is no "fake murder plan". The "fake murder theory" only applies outside the tales, what "actually" happened until parents hijacked it.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 11 18:36:14 2011 No.6792516 >>6792498 Actually, the "fake murder plan" IS present in Episodes 5 and 6. ...Even more than that, they both have a hijack of the fake murder plan later on.

Anonymous Tue Jan 11 18:36:14 2011 No.6792517

>>6792232
So the whole "body not capable of love", along with making Lion angrodynous, was an asspull without much tought R07 decided to make in the last minute just to make us goats have something to create theories over without actually making it relevant to the plot nor giving a clear answer? The man is a monster.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 11 18:36:14 2011 No.6792518 I'd have liekd to know Yasu's real name, really.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 11 18:37:14 2011 No.6792527 >>6792517 Also for the sake of homolust with Will without making Beatrice having a canon penis

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 11 18:39:14 2011 No.6792533 >>6792518 Lion

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 11 18:40:14 2011 No.6792540 >>6792517 Not really. The duality of Kanon and Shannon was a hint to it from the very beginning, actually.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 11 18:42:14 2011 No.6792551 >>6792533 You know, his other name, the one he should have been called the rest of his life, including Fukuin House.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 11 18:42:14 2011 No.6792554 >>6792540 To me it only pointed to Shannon being bisexual, not the actual possibility of Futa-beato that Lion created

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 11 18:44:14 2011 No.6792560 >>6792551 Shannon?

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 11 18:44:14 2011 No.6792567 >>6792560 He made up Shannon, remember that.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 11 18:45:14 2011 No.6792568 >>6792560 Sayo, more likely.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 11 18:46:14 2011 No.6792579 >>6792567 The entity Shannon, yeah, but "Shannon" was what the servant was referred to. Yasu was Yasu's nickname amongst the staff, but Yasu's servant name was actually Shannon, which implies that Yasu's Fukuin House name was Sayo.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 11 18:48:14 2011 No.6792590 >>6792517 What are you talking about? I don't see how this is related with the post you are quoting.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 11 18:48:14 2011 No.6792591 >>6792579 >but "Shannon" was what the servant was referred to Never, only one servant refers to Shannon once and is probably making fun of Yasu and his/her imaginary friend.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 11 18:49:14 2011 No.6792596 >>6787176 Yes 10/10 will read again.

Anonymous Tue Jan 11 18:50:14 2011 No.6792602

>>6792551
It's something like Lion Ushiromiya was her birth name, then her name became "Mary" Yasuda when she went to the orphanage, her nickname was Yasu due to the Yasuda name, her blessed servant name was Shannon based on kanji play with yasu>sayo. She then became Beatrice and left the Shannon name to her "work face" persona then later she created Kanon with another kanji wordplay yoshia/kazuya/yasu

The only name we don't know for sure is the "Mary" in Mary Yasuda

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 11 18:52:14 2011 No.6792613 >>6792602 >The only name we don't know for sure is the "Mary" in Mary Yasuda Which is the one I'd like to know.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 11 18:52:14 2011 No.6792618 It's Yadusa Sayo

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 11 18:53:14 2011 No.6792620 >>6792602 It was probably Sayo Yasuda. Not sure where you got the "Mary" from, unless it's based on the bit where Kinzo got mad about Rosa giving the name "Maria" to her daughter.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 11 18:54:14 2011 No.6792628 >>6792620 nah I just gave her some generic first name as an example

Anonymous Tue Jan 11 18:56:14 2011 No.6792635

>>6792620
I'm sure that has to do with 'Maria' being similar to 'Mary', which has to do with the whole Holy Ghost thing. Kinzo believed in occultism and being buried instead of cremation, so that's likely why. I don't see why everyone thinks automatically that it has something to do with Yasu or Beatrice, especially since in EP 7 it's pretty clear that Kinzo wanted to give the name "Lion" to Yasu and not "Mary" or "Maria"

Anonymous Tue Jan 11 19:11:14 2011 No.6792701
File: 310 KB, 640x480, shannonchan.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>6792591

Shkannontrice actually has a number of small contradictions or just generally awkward moments throughout the series, this is one of them. There's a couple of times in Ep.7 where Shannon and Yasu are referred to in the same scene seperately.

I still like the Kanontrice theory best. It explains a bit better how Kanon came out of nowhere and why he exists, Shannon was real and it was Yasu keeping an eye on her. Of course, the Fukuin house scenes were imagined, either by Shannon or Yasu. The only problem with it is explaining where Kanon/Yasu went when she stopped being a servant.

I liked the idea that Yasu never was a servant, just pretended to be one like she pretended to be a witch. That's why she looked up to Shannon, why she kept losing her keys(she probably didn't have any of her own originally until Kumasawa took pity on her, she just imagined she did), etc.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 11 19:18:14 2011 No.6792746 >>6792635 >>6792620 And this, this is how bullshit is created.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 11 19:24:14 2011 No.6792780 >>6792635 I think Beatrice's real name being Mary or Maria was an old theory before we got the full story about Yasu.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 11 19:43:14 2011 No.6792886 >>6791803 >Higurashi ending was quite beautiful and consistent. Higurashi's ending was retarded and stupid. Children taking on armed soldiers and winning? Fuck that noise. I'll buy space parasites before I buy that.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 11 19:48:14 2011 No.6792911 >>6792886 >A part of Higurashi ending was retareded Sure, it was a trainwreck. But it didn't destroy the characters, the theme or shitted over all the novel.

Anonymous Tue Jan 11 19:59:14 2011 No.6792952
File: 92 KB, 800x566, 55ec2a77.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>6792911
> But it didn't destroy the characters, the theme or shitted over all the novel.

Neither did Umineko, unless you buy the whole "Battler dream everything" spoiler.

The whole story was about Beato's struggle on bringing Battler to Golden land, reunite everyone.
I mean, look at the two covers.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 11 20:04:14 2011 No.6792971 >>6792952 ...The disjointed Meta/Real world connections alone are the issue for that

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 11 20:07:14 2011 No.6792979 >>6792971 elaborate

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 11 20:08:14 2011 No.6792984 >>6792952 Yeah because the crazy eunuch managed to become a true witch and bring all the people who were horribly murdered in an awesome golden land, sure.

Anonymous Tue Jan 11 20:14:14 2011 No.6793004

>>6792979
Simply put, real life events are done and over with.
Any struggle that takes place in the Meta World affects almost nothing. Assuming they are metaphors for real characters and events, they start to fucking OUTNUMBER them.
Assuming it was there to add perspective on 'story within a story' or how to approach the genre, it was ruined the moment it got more focus than the original.

Not to mention all the useless info and mechanics about 'kakera, witches, voyagers HEY WE TRAVERSE THE INFINITE ARE WE COOL' that really do not add anything to the story'/

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 11 20:16:14 2011 No.6793015 >>6793004 The whole kakera's thing is something that if you dont like it you shouldnt be reading this.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 11 20:18:14 2011 No.6793021 Kakera = fiction It was plainly stated in episode 7. And the whole fiction thing is the core of Umineko. So of course you need it.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 11 20:18:14 2011 No.6793023 >>6793015 Just existing and serving a bit as a mechanic is not the issue. As I said, the problem is it got too much useless focus only to add unnecessary layers of confusion and obfuscate the little facts each episode already barely contains

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 11 20:25:14 2011 No.6793036 >>6793004 >it was ruined the moment it got more focus than the original. Just your opinion. From what I see, it got better.

Anonymous Tue Jan 11 20:50:14 2011 No.6793113

>>6793004
Unless you take it as the story really being about the Meta World.

...Which it was. The gameboards were just that. Gameboards. The sites of games played out by the inhabitants of the Meta World. In fact, the only time we're shown the "real" world, we see events in the future, and even then it's unknown how much of that is actually "real".

Basically, Umineko has always been a story of the meta. We just didn't know this until later on.

Anonymous Tue Jan 11 20:57:14 2011 No.6793134

>>6793113
Exactly the problem.
Considering what meta represents, characterizations, plot cohesion, and the point of a ton of text becomes greatly diminished. If the meta are the focus and the actual consistent world, then the stop serving as 'metaphors' for characters and events in the 'real' as well.

Anonymous Tue Jan 11 21:07:14 2011 No.6793171

>>6793134
In which case you can simply go with them both being real in some way. After all, you don't treat any of the various Fragments of Higurashi as less important than any others, despite the only one that really matters being the one that the Fragment-traveling Rika (i.e. that portion of Frederica Bernkastel that gets placed in the Rika of each new Fragment) ends up in. Or do you?

Anonymous Tue Jan 11 21:18:14 2011 No.6793204

>>6793171
It is not even close to being the same thing, both on what each worlds represents, and how they are presented and tied together.
The fact that the vents each world were, and you are given a clear explanation and characterization(which may have sucked writing wise, but different story) , while also being DISTINCT(only essentially one character truly carries the memories,)...Exact opposite of Umineko 'gameboards and written fiction' episodes and 'meta representatives'.
That's exactly why you care more about characters and what they face in each world in Higurashi.
If meta is a distinct world, any 'representations' and metaphors it's supposed to have concerning the real world are moot. If not and it serves as a different perspective only, then what is the fucking point of shifting focus? It's doomed regardless of the angle

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 11 21:25:14 2011 No.6793217 >>6793204 There's no point in shifting focus because there's no focus shift. Meta world was always the focus ever since the end of episode 1.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 11 21:43:14 2011 No.6793279 >>6793217 It stopped being 'meta' that moment, which makes it's role and events that transpire...pointless.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 11 22:25:14 2011 No.6793418 >>6793204 >I am unable to comprehend a story having multiple meanings. Why can't it be both a story of a witch's game AND a allegory for the events of Rokenjima.

Anonymous Tue Jan 11 22:46:14 2011 No.6793508

Personally, I realised the focus on the Meta/Tea-Drinking/Game-Playing world by EP3. And I believe that, by EP4 it was rather simple and consistent. We only had one gameboard and one Meta-Layer (of course, there were the place we saw in the ???? Tea Party and the so-called Golden Land in EP4 - however, there was nothing to indicate those were other layers, and so it was okay). My problem starts in EP5, when the line between the gameboard and the Meta-world starts to blurry and in addition, we also got additional Meta-Layers. We already had the future (1998) intermingling with the Meta, but that much was easy to bypass. However, on EP6, we get yet another layer, and yet another 1998, in which we're told that the 1998 we saw was a fiction and yet another Meta-layer. In addition, whilst at first we could have rolled with the gameboards being fiction and the Meta being some magical place, Hachijo mentions things like the Red in her books and Ange even asks her not to have her killed in gruesome ways again (which only happened in the Meta - as we never really saw any gruesome death in the 1998 fiction). Then, in EP8, we have Ange mentally shifting from the real world to the Meta, and by the end of the episode, we're told that what we saw in EP6... was yet another fiction and yet another meta-layer. And what's even funnier, is that this "real world" in EP8 is highly questionable due to Ange's shifting from real to meta (and vice versa) I mentioned earlier, two different endings, and the "true" ending having Ange talking about the events in the Meta and having a Beatrice doll she was given in a gameboard (had she solved some puzzles).

Anonymous Tue Jan 11 22:47:14 2011 No.6793513

>>6793508
Seriously, all I can say is that I cannot understand what this is supposed to be. Of course, by the end we're told all of these were stories written by an amnesiac Battler (now named Tohya), trying to remember what happened - and the fun thing is, whether this event is real or not is questionable as well. But let us assume it is true, wouldn't that bring into question all of what we've seen throughout all these games, because it is impossible for Tohya to know all the details about his family, especially when it comes down to their private lives, and even more so, their thoughts and feelings. Of course, that could easily be solved by saying that the Meta is magical; thus, having all that info is possible, and this problem would be solved. However, all this meta layers seriously made it hard to believe to a point in which it has, in my opinion, mostly denied that possibility.

I'd also go onto the thematics the Meta(s) was supposed to shown, and how it seems inconsistent to some degree, but honestly, I'm too tired for this.

Anonymous Tue Jan 11 22:51:14 2011 No.6793517

>>6793513
Battler isn't name Tohya.

Battler is slowly remembering. When he hears about Rokkenjima he remembers things. When the writings have things Battler wouldn't normally know, they are his deductions or assumptions. Every character is just an experiment to see how they ring bells.

Also, he has Yasu's two bottles to go off.

Anonymous Tue Jan 11 23:03:14 2011 No.6793570

>>6793508
>>6793513

Oh god, someone actually trying to make sense of the Meta World. So rare to actually find someone who bothers.

The 1998 mixing with Meta thing is easy to understand if you just take it as Tohya creating another Ange in her story to talk with her Author Avatar, and maybe slyly comment on the fact that she was writing bullshit fictional stories and deaths about real people in a real massacre.

The real problem for me is to justify this from an in story perspective, i.e. explaining it with Magic and the Meta World, not fiction.

I mean, basic Meta World is pretty easy. You have the board, separated into two: The Island, and the Tea Room where Battler and Beato fight. Above the board is the Witch's Tea Room, where Lambda and Bern commentate, (Battler is there too as the official opponent, but he's asleep and unaware at the start). Beato as the GM can move freely between layers, preferring to spend time arguing with Battler. Whenever she or any other fantasy character descends to the island, she takes on a role she decided for herself while weaving the fantasy side story. Think of it like a Live Action Role Playing Game. This is how Virgillia can act like an Antagonist in EP4, and how Dlanor can separate her duties and have tea with Battler at break time.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 11 23:03:14 2011 No.6793571 >>6793508 >I realised the focus on the Meta/Tea-Drinking/Game-Playing world by EP3 I realized by the answer bgm scene in EP2

Anonymous Tue Jan 11 23:05:14 2011 No.6793579

>>6793517
I think you should re-read the final scenes, dude. At that point he IS Tohya. That's the whole point with him saying "I'm the man who carries the memories of Ushiromiya Battler," and there was the fact he found carrying these memories terrifying, because he was scared they'd erase him as Tohya ( who he has lived as for 24 years - that's even more time than what he lived as Battler).

Think of Beatrice from EPs 1-5 and Moetrice in EP6, with Battler being the former and Tohya the latter, with the exception that Tohya was extremely terrified about his current self disappearing - and, again, him having lived as Tohya more than what he lived as Battler.

This is precisely why Bern could say in Red Battler died.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 11 23:05:14 2011 No.6793581 >>6793418 I comprehended just fine. Just saying it was handled BADLY.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 11 23:05:14 2011 No.6793582 I haven't even played this game and I knew that.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 11 23:06:14 2011 No.6793587 >>6793579 But he didn't live as Tohya. He lived as 18.

Anonymous Tue Jan 11 23:12:14 2011 No.6793600

>>6793570
>I mean, basic Meta World is pretty easy. You have the board, separated into two: The Island, and the Tea Room where Battler and Beato fight. Above the board is the Witch's Tea Room, where Lambda and Bern commentate, (Battler is there too as the official opponent, but he's asleep and unaware at the start). Beato as the GM can move freely between layers, preferring to spend time arguing with Battler. Whenever she or any other fantasy character descends to the island, she takes on a role she decided for herself while weaving the fantasy side story. Think of it like a Live Action Role Playing Game. This is how Virgillia can act like an Antagonist in EP4, and how Dlanor can separate her duties and have tea with Battler at break time.

I know, this part I did understand. The way the Meta worked back then in EPs1-4 was fairly simple. The only difference between your idea and mine is that I didn't think of the room in the ???? Tea Parties as an additional layer, but part of the same (as in a secret/different room in the same layer) - although, EP5 could be proving me wrong on this one. However, Battler did show up in this room during EP4 - after Ange managed to bring him back, I believe.

Either way, my problem is all the layers that show up afterwards, and even more so, Hachijo talking about the Red Text in her books (and the Red Text only shows up in the Meta World), and Ange talking about she got killed gruesomely in a previous book (and the only we saw her getting killed gruesomely, was in the Angeburger scene in EP4 and that took place in the Meta World).

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 11 23:14:14 2011 No.6793603 >>6793587 Tohya = 十八 = 18 He lived with that identity for 24 years.

Anonymous Tue Jan 11 23:15:14 2011 No.6793607

>>6793570

When the Games begin everyone is ridiculously into their given roles and take everything deadly seriously. That's why the Love Battles in EP6 were treated so importantly.

Also, between Games everyone chills in the Golden Land, where everyone is equal. That's why you can have shenanigans like Game Master Batter and the other TIPS. I like to think that the souls of the Ushiromiyas are just taking it easy in the afterlife, playing games with the witches just to kill time in purgatory. This is also why Pieces can't act outside their own nature even while in a given role. They're still the same souls/people after all.

Anonymous Tue Jan 11 23:15:14 2011 No.6793608

Touya is just writing down everything his other self, meta Battler experienced in the previous tales.

Honestly, this isn't any different from K1 remembering what he did in other worlds. And to add to that, Ange also remembers, she was basically another Rika confirming K1/Battler isn't insane.

Anonymous Tue Jan 11 23:26:14 2011 No.6793643

>>6793608
I have no problem with that theory/interpretation (although, I do not share it). The main difference is that, in Higurashi, there were kakeras and that was never questioned. In Umineko, however, there are no such things. We have only one real world (which, we cannot say with certainty we're ever seen it) and a Meta World. However, the existence of this Meta World is questioned in the story. Of course, by the end, its existence is neither proved or disproved, but it is left for the reader to interpret it through the evidence in the novels.

So, I wouldn't call this situation just like K1's or Rika's.

Anonymous Tue Jan 11 23:26:14 2011 No.6793645

>>6793600

Fictionwise, Tohya was just poking fun at her readers and story mechanics. She probably also did this because her Ange character proved so popular and people wanted her back. So she used the Ange character as her Audience surrogate. Also, that's all the Ushiromiyas are to her. Characters for an entertaining story. Their backstories and personalities may not be necessarily true, but if it makes for good story, she goes for it.

Magicwise, AuAu made a realm and modeled it after Ange's memories so not shock her at first, and resurrected her there after EP4 to serve as her Miko. They're separated from Beato's game in both time and space. This is illustrated by EP6 already being a finished book from their perspective. At the end of her duty, AuAu sent Ange back to sleep into limbo.

Now EP7-8 I do not fucking understand. It's so patchwork.

Anonymous Tue Jan 11 23:54:14 2011 No.6793713

>>6793645
>Fictionwise, Tohya was just poking fun at her readers and story mechanics. She probably also did this because her Ange character proved so popular and people wanted her back. So she used the Ange character as her Audience surrogate. Also, that's all the Ushiromiyas are to her. Characters for an entertaining story. Their backstories and personalities may not be necessarily true, but if it makes for good story, she goes for it.

>Magicwise, AuAu made a realm and modeled it after Ange's memories so not shock her at first, and resurrected her there after EP4 to serve as her Miko. They're separated from Beato's game in both time and space. This is illustrated by EP6 already being a finished book from their perspective. At the end of her duty, AuAu sent Ange back to sleep into limbo.

I understand this much too. My problem with the introduction of this meta layer is that it put into doubt the existence of the Meta World as a magical place, but it started looking as a fictional one. This basically also put into doubt all the stories and characterisations so far. Of course, back then I just brushed it aside and followed the idea that Hachijo was some super genius who understood the whole truth in Rokkenjima by solving the 2 letters in the bottles. However, as of now, 1. it seems you cannot reach the truth of the events of Rokkenjima by solving the mysteries from EPs 1-4, and 2. that Hachijo was part of yet another fiction.

Something I find it funny was that Battler supposedly found the truth behind everything - not only who Beatrice is - by solving the first four games. However, suddenly, by EP7 and EP8, those games were merely about ShKanontrice and they were never about what actually happened in the island - or so it seems.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 12 00:21:14 2011 No.6793781 >>6793645 7's pretty easy to understand. It's basically the important backstories for various characters told, with Will and Lion as the framing device. Yasu's story adds in the greek chorus, but it's still pretty simple.

Anonymous Wed Jan 12 00:27:14 2011 No.6793791

>>6793713
> Something I find it funny was that Battler supposedly found the truth behind everything - not only who Beatrice is - by solving the first four games. However, suddenly, by EP7 and EP8, those games were merely about ShKanontrice and they were never about what actually happened in the island - or so it seems.

Meta Battler figured out the truth about Beatrice, and real-world Battler, a.k.a. Touya, finally remembered everything that had happened. That's why things start getting so strange past that, and why he reintroduced Ange as a character starting in Episode 6.

Anonymous Wed Jan 12 00:54:14 2011 No.6793871

>>6793791
The problem with this idea is, that if we assume that there's a correlation between Meta Battler's progress and Tohya's memories, I believe they should be the same.

Also, remember the whole thing about Gold Text being able to be used by someone who understood everything - i.e. GM level. So, I'm sure Meta-Battler understood everything, and following the same suit, Tohya regained his memories.

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