/jp/ - Otaku Culture

[Anonymous No.]

She could have been a good character if she wasn't a backstabbing bitch who caused all the events of Tsukihime.
What a shame.

[Anonymous No.]

Good character does not equal likable character you autistic nitwit.

[Necrobrotent No.]

I don't for a second believe that she caused shiki to cut arc up by drugging him.

She could have caused the cumming his pants part though.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7813644
Oh wow

[Anonymous No.]

>>7813654
She did drug Arcueid to ensure that she wouldn't notice the original Roa giving her some blood in a rose though. In fact Roa never really wanted to be immortal, he just got the idea out of nowhere in his delirious wanderings (because Kohaku drugged him too) and just ran with the plan.

Also, she's the one who called Crimson Moon to Earth and started this whole mess.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7813654

Shiki cut up Arc because of his Nanaya genes. The same reason for him cumming.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7813654

Remind me again where Shiki got the knife.

[Necrobrotent No.]

>>7813667
No shit, but the popular fan theory is that kohaku drugged him up so send his genes into a frenzy, probably to murder akiha.

>>7813663
What kind of girl eats the goddamn rose you give her anyway? I wonder how awkward that scene was for Roa

"A token of my love"

*Munch munch munch*

"Okay"

I know it didn't happen that way I just thought it'd be funny

[Necrobrotent No.]

>>7813677
remind me again how the knife is special in any way when it comes to killing moon princesses?

[Anonymous No.]

>>7813654
he came in his pants?

[Anonymous No.]

>>7813691
Who wouldn't?

[Anonymous No.]

Nasu ripped of Madoka. Here's why:

Aki = Homu Homu
Curry = Sayaka
Arc = Mami
Hisui = Kyoko
Kohaku = meguka
Ren = kyubei

[Anonymous No.]

Tsukihime is a game about blood thirsty vampires and demons, and how a scrawny human defeats them all after overcoming traumatic obstacles with her cleverness and quick wits.

Kohaku is a hero of uncommon valor, as well as being a fascinating and multifaceted character.

[Anonymous No.]

But she is a good character. And my favourite Tsukihime character

[Anonymous No.]

>>7813818
So she's a slut like Sakura

[Anonymous No.]

>>7813818
Best MC ever. Tsukihime would have been a less enjoyable VN without her.

[Anonymous No.]

Instead she became a great character. Best villain ever.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7813818

I can't help but feel sorry for her. After all what happened during her youth...

[Anonymous No.]

Remove Kohaku from Tsukihime and you have a glorified version of Raildex.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7813866
But that's what it is without removing anything.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7813818
You post was so good, but you ruined it.

Tsukihime is a game about blood thirsty vampires and demons.

Kohaku shows that humans can be equally if not more monstrous than the monsters. In a sense possible of even greater evil, Kohaku caused so much shit WITHOUT powers.

being slutty=/=powers

[Anonymous No.]

You're STILL talking about Tsukihime?
That's like starting a thread about how Knuckles could have prevented Sonic 3's storyline if he wasn't so gullible.
It's fucking 2011, talk about Rewrite.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7813891

[Anonymous No.]

>>7813891
Carnival Phantasm caused a massive influx of /a/ users to start reading Tsukihime, and now they're posting threads about it here again, since they know we can't really question them in this regard.

It sucks, but hey. I'd tell you to deal with it if I wasn't having trouble too.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7813931
How do you even get this delusional?

[Anonymous No.]

>>7813891
>>>/v/108745499

[Anonymous No.]

>>7813928
>>7813941
You seem awfully disturbed by such tame posts, Anon. Why are you so aggressive all of a sudden?

[Anonymous No.]

Kohaku will kill your family and sodomize you.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7813848
I have nothing against sluts.

But the reason I hate Sakura is because she is complete worthless unlike Kohaku.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7813949
Kohaku is the most gangsta type moon.

[White Ren !YLuFFdRcFQ No.]

Your posts are without meaning, because her smile was real.

Himawari-hime.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7814042
We all know how that ended up for her.

[White Ren !YLuFFdRcFQ No.]

>>7814455
Truly, the moest.

[Anonymous No.]

[Anonymous No.]

>>7813883
Demons and nature elementals need love too...

[White Ren !YLuFFdRcFQ No.]

>>7814507
Half-demon, full awesome.

[Anonymous No.]

Kohaku was a good character BECAUSE she wasn't just a generic girl to thrown into the story for shiki to fuck, and as terrible as the shit she does is you still can't help but sympathize with her because she really does have good reasons for wanting to kill all of the Tohno's.

By the way, don't read the above sentence if you're one of the five people on earth that are interested in VN's but still haven't read tsukihime.

Sakura had penis worms and brother-in-law rape.
Problem with these are that they happen because she's a doormat and just let them happen.
Well I can't say for sure the penis worm training would have stopped if she actually forcefully refused, but considering her nature she probably just took it.

She isn't called a slut for nothing.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7814529
Truth be told, isn't she more like 1% demon?
I thought it was hundreds of years ago the Tohno's were engaging in sexual escapades with onis.

[Anonymous No.]

Akiha is defective little girl without any feminine characteristics. She's also generic tsundere and not a big surprise that she's absolutely flat just like Taiga from Toradora or any other generic tsundere.

You must be pedo or gay if you like Akiha.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7814611
Sakura had been raped 12 years non stop.
Kohaku's rapist died.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7814635
What if Suika is Akiha's great-great-great-grandmother?

[Anonymous No.]

>>7814701
It would explain her DFC.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7814711

[Anonymous No.]

>>7814611
>because she really does have good reasons for wanting to kill all of the Tohno's.

What? No the fuck she doesn't. She has a good reason to kill the old man. He died before she could get revenge though, so okay, she takes it out on Akiha. That's no longer just, but understandable.

But she also takes it out on Shiki. That is in no way fair anymore, Shiki wasn't even remotely related to that shit. And fuck, how many other people does her plot get killed again?

[Anonymous No.]

>>7814701
why is one of her chain ornaments straight down and still when you can clearly see that she is moving?

[Anonymous No.]

>>7814773

Sacchin and pretty much everyone that shows up on the news, around 50ish or alot more people depending on how much blood SHIKI or Roa drink a night.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7814775
Density manipulation.

[Anonymous No.]

Don't get me wrong, Kohaku is a good character. But she is a villain - a tragic villain to be sure, but still a villain, and she must die for the story to be complete.

[Necronbrotent No.]

I was okay with loses her memory and blows me on the side.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7814773
>He died before she could get revenge though, so okay, she takes it out on Akiha
No he didn't. He died because Kohaku freed SHIKI from the Tohno dungeon knowing that SHIKI would rip the old man apart.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7814800
That's a very shallow view. There's no need to categorize people simply because it's fiction.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7814866

Well in that case it just becomes even more unjustified. She got her revenge right there.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7814902

She isn't a person. She's a character. She exists to server the story.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7814907
And as I say that's a shallow view.

[White Ren !YLuFFdRcFQ No.]

>>7814660
It's not rape if you pretty much could've killed your rapist at any point. Kohaku didn't learn how to poison people until much later. Frankly, Zouken wouldn't have cared if Sakura killed Shinji. Shinji had no purpose other than to hopefully keep Sakura in line.

>>7814800
Kohaku is the true heroine of Tsukihime. How does it feel?

>>7814701
Perfectly okay with that.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7814921
>true heroine of Tsukihime
No she isn't. The mary sue earth spirit princess is.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7814903
>Well in that case it just becomes even more unjustified. She got her revenge right there.
Not quite. SHIKI still raped her for about six years. She knew that he would eventually come back for Akiha, and that Akiha would trounce SHIKI.

As for killing Akiha, it was necessary. I really think Kohaku liked Akiha, but she was a threat to Hisui.

Akiha's father and brother both went homicidal crazy, but were able to somewhat control their urges because of the twins' status buffs. If Akiha started to go crazy there was a damn good chance she would need to do the same.

In fact, this does actually happen. Akiha is observed drinking Kohaku's blood fresh from a wound. As long as Akiha was alive, Hisui would be in potential danger.

And with Akiha dead, the only living heir to the vast Tohno fortune would be Shiki, who wasn't a Tohno by blood, and he liked Hisui enough to ensure to her safety and comfort.

Kohaku isn't acting purely out of revenge. Kohaku is trying to protect her cute little sister.

[Anonymous No.]

stupid whore

[None !Nipaa0mi0. No.]

>>7814611
Zouken has his worms in Sakura's body. She can't escape them and even Kotomine can't fully remove them despite being a gifted healer and blowing a ton of command seals trying to do so. With them Zouken can torture her or even kill her on a whim. Considering that trying to resist merely results in more torture and that it's impossible for her to escape the worms I think it's natural for her to have stopped resisting after 11 years of torture.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7815101
>SHIKI still raped her for about six years.
That doesn't count as rape. Kohaku was using her body to keep SHIKI as dumb as ever.

The rest about killing the Tohno's for Hisui is some massive fan bullshitting. It isn't either stated or implied, and if anything it's stated the exact opposite, with revenge being her only wish.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7814611
>Well I can't say for sure the penis worm training would have stopped if she actually forcefully refused

People can't be this moronic. She was fucking 8 when that shit started.

[None !Nipaa0mi0. No.]

>>7815322
Yeah. Akiha stopped her father from raping Kohaku. She would have done the same with SHIKI if she knew about it but Kohaku instead chose to allow SHIKI to fuck her in secret so that she could manipulate him into murdering his family.

[None !Nipaa0mi0. No.]

>>7815337
Actually she must have been 5 at the time since it started a year before the 4th Grail War. And do people really think that Zouken would have stopped her rape and torture if she had firmly requested that to him?

[Anonymous No.]

>>7815353
>Actually she must have been 5 at the time
I haven't read Fate/Zero yet, but I hope Daddy Tohasaka dies painfully.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7815355
>Tohsaka

[Anonymous No.]

>>7815322
>That doesn't count as rape. Kohaku was using her body to keep SHIKI as dumb as ever.
Because Father Tohno threatened to rape Hisui if she didn't.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7815368

He was already dead at that point.

[None !Nipaa0mi0. No.]

>>7815368
Where is that said? Makihisa wanted to fuck Hisui himself and Kohaku volunteered to be fucked overtime instead by him to protect her. And that was before Akiha learned about what was going on.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7815322
>The rest about killing the Tohno's for Hisui is some massive fan bullshitting. It isn't either stated or implied,
It was directly stated in Hisui's normal end.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7815355

One aspect of fateverse that was left curiously unexplored in FSN was how Rin feels about his father. Specifically about how he sold her sister to worst kind of sex slavery imaginable to the evilest dude in town. I always thought that was an odd omission.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7815375
Seriously? When? The speech is pretty much the same if I remember right, and after that she's amnesiac.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7815381
I always thought it was weird how Rin didn't know what was going on with Sakura, considering all her knowledge about magus. I assumed it was a leap of logic or something.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7815372
>He was already dead at that point.
Kohaku was raped by SHIKI for years BEFORE Makihisa died.
AFTER Makihisa died she was no longer being raped.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7815387
>Seriously? When? The speech is pretty much the same if I remember right, and after that she's amnesiac.
No, after that she's dead.
I think the normal ending has Akiha and Kohaku both dying before the end. I apologize if I am mistaken.

[None !Nipaa0mi0. No.]

>>7815381
Even during the 5th grail war Rin still hugely admires her father. In her view he was a perfect magus.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7815400
Worst sister ever? Worst sister ever.

>>7815396
>Kohaku was raped by SHIKI for years BEFORE Makihisa died.
>AFTER Makihisa died she was no longer being raped.
Makihisa dies because she frees SHIKI and it's pretty much the first thing he does. He then proceeds to satisfy himself with her. She was using her body to manipulate him bro. He even says he fell for it like a little bitch.

[None !Nipaa0mi0. No.]

>>7815396
She still allowed SHIKI to fuck her after that so that she could manipulate him into murdering the Tohno family though.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7815402
There's no normal end. True end and good end. True = Dead, good = Amnesia.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7815400

That, and when Dark Sakura confronts Rin, trying to push guilt on her with her sob story, Rin's response amounts to "who gives a flying fuck about you".

Clearly her sister's fate doesn't trouble her overmuch,.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7815419
I'm not particularly a Rin fan, but she was trying to put pressure on Sakura with that. I don't think she actually meant it.

A completely stupid move though. Whether trying to save her or stab her, enraging her was ridiculous.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7815381
>how Rin feels about his father. Specifically about how he sold her sister to worst kind of sex slavery imaginable to the evilest dude in town
I thought she greatly respected (and loved) her father, and simply put, didn't really know just how fucked up the Matous were/are.

I still think its worth noting that the Matous were still a highly renowed magi family with vast power and status.
To be the heir of such a family wouldn't necessarily be all that bad, or even bad at all.

Mage life is tough in the nasuverse, but later on as the heads of their respective families they might have been able to get along.
Such a thing would also have been considered common practice, and is in theory not completely devoid of thought, even though it can be seen as inhumane to split apart a family.

Rin still looked over her sister all the time from beyond. And her attitude towards the whole thing drastically changed when she realized just how bad things was/had been.
So I suspect she didn't think of it as such a weird thing considering how it is a somehow common practice among magi, and how the Matou's were of high status. And that she still loved her father despite following the ways of the magi.
Though she still have some complicated feelings about some of the less humane aspects of the magi life, as is made very apparent from how she envies the way Kiritsugu chose to take care of Shirou.

[Anonymous No.]

The problem with Kohaku was that she got god knows how many civilians killed.

But since no one ever calls her on that in the story, people act like it never happened.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7815443

See also: Sakura.

Your death doesn't matter in a Nasu VN if you're not a main character.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7815419
>Rin's response amounts to "who gives a flying fuck about you".
No, that is in fact far from it.

It was a question of sympathy, and Rin straight down declared that she wouldn't (couldn't) even try to sympathise with Sakura. Not because she didn't care, not because she didn't love her, but because their life experiences are so vastly different that she couldn't even begin to actually understand how it must have felt like for Sakura.

So, it basically amounts to how she cut Sakura short, and declared that although she can't sympathise with her sister, she still loves her.
To love without despite not understanding everything is a pure form of love. Conditionless love. .

For some reason people tend to misinterpret her rather blunt declaration and refusal of sympathy to mean that she didn't love her.
Which is something I find rather odd considering how she declared her love for her not long afterwards.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7815450
Sakura's killing of innocents was addressed, but Shirou still chose her over them.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7815450

Sakura couldn't help what she was doing for the vast majority of that route, and later on, after she becomes Dark Sakura, she is legitimately insane.

Kohaku, on the other hand...

[Anonymous No.]

>>7815450
Sakura gets called on endangering people.

Repeatedly. Even for the deaths she wasn't responsible for. Hell, she gets killed for it in that one ending everyone loves.

Tsukihime literally ignores the fact and only makes a point of the Tohno murder attempt.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7815455
tl;dr
Rin said she couldn't sympathise with Sakura. So she wouldn't even try, but at the same time she said that it doesn't matter because she loves her even so.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7815464
>Tsukihime literally ignores the fact and only makes a point of the Tohno murder attempt.

And Kohaku gets rewarded with Sunflower End no matter what. Sakura has a pretty damn high chance of being alone the rest of her entire life.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7815455

This scene... ;_;

[None !Nipaa0mi0. No.]

>>7815464
And Sakura actually allows Rin to kill her instead of trying to fight back in that end. And later in the story if Shirou decides to kill her, Sakura is willing to let him do so (though Rider intervenes regardless). So she definitely feels guilt over what the Shadow does even when she doesn't control it.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7815455
I want to believe the translator (or Nasu at worst) misunderstood the scene and the meaning of sympathy.

Sympathy doesn't just mean sharing the feelings of the other person, it also encases empathic concern and compassion. Rin VERY MUCH evidently had those. It was either a shit use of the word on part of Rin, the translator or Nasu.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7815412
>She still allowed SHIKI to fuck her after that so that she could manipulate him into murdering the Tohno family though.
I need to reread this then, I'm misremembering shit.
...
If I start from a reinstall, the VN is going to make me play through the nearside routes first, won't it..?

Fuck.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7815485
>Sympathy doesn't just mean sharing the feelings of the other person, it also encases empathic concern
Sympathy actually requires both. So if you can't fulfill both it is not true sympathy.

Though to be honest, I actually don't remember whether or not it said "sympathy" or "empathy" in the translation. As I didn't check myself I went with sympathy in my post as it is both, and still 50% chance of it being correct.

No matter the case though, Rin basically said that she wouldn't waste energy/time trying, as it's essentially pointless given how she can't understand her even if she tried due to how different their lives have been, though as mentioned repeatidly, that she loves her even so.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7815497
>I need to reread this
I remember the last time I thought the same thing. My conclusion was "Well the remake is coming, might as well wait."
And waited I did...

[Anonymous No.]

>>7815101

[Anonymous No.]

>>7815502
The remake will inevitably be terrible though. Most likely the music will be butchered (hard to believe, huh) and it'll look less atmospheric.

[Anonymous No.]

Falling in love with Rin all over again in this thread.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7815101
Makihisa went crazy when he was about 40 years old. And it was noted in Makihisa's diary that Akiha will be sane longer because she has a weaker demon blood in her.

[Anonymous No.]

You see.
There is a huge difference between being a spineless jealous bitch slut compare to someone who doesnt give a shit and just go for true revenge.

Why the fuck is /jp/ suddenly filled with moralfags?

[Anonymous No.]

>>7815567
>Why the fuck is /jp/ suddenly filled with moralfags?
You do need to understand the characters in game. If people have morals in game, then its weird if that isn't made relevant.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7815567

Sakura is actually insane. Kohaku, despite her tragic backstory, is merely twisted and evil.

But she gets away with trying to murder everyone in the end, because Tsukihime has horrible writing.

>>7815513

I'm going to miss being able to replace the music with Persona 4 tracks and suddenly having a much better game.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7815603
No, she gets away with it because nobody knows about it besides Shiki, Akiha and Hisui. And they forgave her.

>because Tsukihime has horrible writing.
So if a murderer gets away with it, it's bad writing?

[Anonymous No.]

>>7815513
Yikes, you sound like one of those horrible Ryukishi fanboys.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7815625
>And they forgave her.
It doesn't even mention the fact that she got quite many innocent people killed.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7815641
see
>>7815503

[Anonymous No.]

>>7815603
True end of Tsukihime was pretty good and probably the best route in the game. Near side was shit and only Akiha routes come close.
I dont know how you can call it bad writing just because she got away with it.
You have to realize that Kohaku never dirty her hands and she only nudged those idiots to do her bidding.

[White Ren !YLuFFdRcFQ No.]

Kohaku.

Truly, she is wonderful.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7815641

Well let's face it, that city had a lot of dead people.

If there's anything I learn from Tsukihime, is that every back alley has a bunch of mutilated dead bodies.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7815646
No, I mean, "the character forgave her". He doesn't in her route since he doesn't know.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7815652
>You have to realize that Kohaku never dirty her hands
Indeed, she only dirtied her vagina with SHIKI's semen.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7815594
>If people have morals in game, then its weird if that isn't made relevant.
What if people didn't have morals?

[White Ren !YLuFFdRcFQ No.]

>>7815652
>do her bidding.

They didn't do her bidding so much as they re-enacted their own tragedies. Kohaku was an abyss of recrimination, despair, and guilt. SHIKI went through with it because nothing was left but recrimination, against everyone that wasn't him. Akiha went through with it because nothing was left but guilt, over not being able to help Kohaku or stop her own heritage. Hisui went through with it because nothing was left but despair, over having her sister lose everything because her sister took the brunt of everything.

The only person to show her something other than one of those things, Shiki, saved her. He was the abort button for the Tohno family's suicidal death pact.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7815657
Shiki realizes himself in Hisui's true end. It's the opposite of >>7815503
And he realizes the same in Kohaku's route but much sooner.

[Anonymous No.]

It wouldn't be so bad if they didn't try to pass Kohaku's end as such a good end and still have the general moral of 'killing is wrong' in the writing.
But they do, and Kohaku getting scott free is quite unnerving. That's why Hisui's route ending (either) is far better as an ending. There's basically no atonement otherwise.

That's the part I'd call badly written. Ignoring the values of the story at such a critical point just for a happy ending.

[Anonymous No.]

what the hell would even happen to kohaku in other routes of tsukihime? I mean she doesn't really get her revenge in most of them. further sinister plans? revert to batshit over the top hyperactive mode like she is in all other media involving her? (seriously, she wasn't THAT hyper in the original game)

I have a similar problem with fate. I just can't imagine a route other than HF happening, it's too depressing to think about Sakura's situation. In fate and ubw nobody knows and shinji and zouken probably just keep on abusing her, even worse in UBW since shirou leaves fuyuki meaning she has nobody left. Sakura always felt like she and Shirou had a thing going on for ages (both just too dumb to say it), Saber and Rin are somewhat unrealistic in how their relationships develop.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7815698

I think it would have been fine if there was a "good" true ending and a standard normal end for her, like sakura has in HF.

at least in normal end shirou gets his just desserts, he destroys himself, and the entire route everybody keeps telling himself he's going down that path

[White Ren !YLuFFdRcFQ No.]

>>7815698
Her "atonement" is living, just like Sakura's was. She has to live with the fact of who she is, what's happened with her, and what she'll do in the future. The same as Akiha. Same as Shiki.

Death doesn't equal atonement. Death is meaningless, no matter who it's for. You don't suddenly make things right by killing someone. It doesn't bring back the ones that are already dead, or undo the suffering of the survivors.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7815707
Actually it's easy to guess with Sakura. Zouken says he'd have no interest in her other than for the Grail deal, so he'd probably stop torturing her. Shinji in Fate is dead, and in UBW he is supposed to be less of a faggot.

It's still quite painful that none of this comes to light and she gets no proper healing, but you can guess how it goes anyway.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7815698
>Ignoring the values of the story at such a critical point just for a happy ending.

Tsukihime has a lot of this. Remember Arc's good end and how it makes no fucking sense?

I want a remake just for some bloody polish.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7815720

this is zouken we're talking about dude. I really REALLY doubt it.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7815707

[Anonymous No.]

>>7815718
>She has to live with the fact of who she is, what's happened with her, and what she'll do in the future.

You know, I never really saw Kohaku showing any shred of remorse for what she did, because she purposefully meant to do all of it.

Living for her is not atonement. Living for her is a reward, especially because she gets to do so with Shiki by her side.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7815718
>Her "atonement" is living
By her route's ending it's past being atonement. She is given a proper place to live, someone who loves her, and she even WANTS to live and be with Shiki.

As terrible as Code Geass was, for example, it was fitting for Suzaku because his life had nothing worth living for or that would make him happy. It's not really that fitting here.

Sage for Code Geass

[Anonymous No.]

>>7815707

This is why HF's true end is meant to be the true ending of the game, but everyone ignores this and keeps jacking off to Archer while pretending that they're jacking off to Rin.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7815725

this is the good end...it's pretty horse shit anyway, akiha is SUPPOSED to die

and i specifically meant what would happen in like arc or ciel route.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7815720
>>7815723

Zouken would probably straight up die in the other routes. I mean wasn't he kinda living for the grail war? With it done/destroyed, he'd give up on life.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7815723
I got the impression that, while Zouken was quite sadistic, he had ADHD in terms of what interests him for that. I always guessed he'd just not give a fuck and go die somewhere else.

[Mirrored No.]

>>7815707

I disagree. Keep in mind Nasu has this horrible habit where making different choices will change the actual reality of the scenario.

Similar to Starcraft 2 where if you decide to kill the colonists in one mission, it turns out their disease was incurable. If you decide to save them the disease was curable. The premise changes based on your actions.

Thus the premise, past, and everything of Sakura are not really set in stone. She doesn't appear in the other routes as Dark Sakura because the reality is different there.

In fact, you might even be able to say that if you do choose her route, it means she suffered in the past. If you don't choose her route, she may have never had to suffer at all.

Which I think is a huge flaw in Nasu's writing. Similar stuff happens in Tsukihime.

So, if you really care about all the girls... change their entire premises to the ones best for them. Which probably means Rin's route.

Personally I think the real heroine of any story is the one that tells the story of the protagonist. In FS/N you only get to see Shirou's true story through Rin's route (Archer is unexplained elsewhere). In Clannad and Kanon only two girls tell the main character's story (Tomoya/Nagisa, Ayu, Nayuki). Tsukihime since the past is not a fixed constant it makes it a bit harder.

[White Ren !YLuFFdRcFQ No.]

>>7815727
>because she purposefully meant to do all of it.

She doesn't purposefully do anything. She is devoid of purpose. That's why her revenge is so mechanical, and so utterly transparent to Akiha and Hisui. The only people unaware of her plot are the two Shikis, one because he's too batshit insane to care, and the other because he's not even aware the twins switched roles.

>I never really saw Kohaku showing any shred of remorse for what she did

She showed an unbelievable amount of remorse for what she did when dealing with Akiha and Shiki. I guess you missed her actions at the end of her own route.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7815707
>Saber and Rin are somewhat unrealistic in how their relationships develop.
OH GOD SAKURA HAS TITS TIME TO SACRIFICE THE ENTIRE TOWN

[Anonymous No.]

>>7815744
No, this is Hisui's normal end. In normal end, Akiha lives.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7815748

that doesn't work

the diaries that shiki reads about his foster father talk about the use of the synchronizer children. not specifically but it is mentioned. and he has her ribbon no matter what, on the day you go back to the mansion.

the backstory doesn't just not exist

[Anonymous No.]

>>7815698
>It wouldn't be so bad if they didn't try to pass Kohaku's end as such a good end and still have the general moral of 'killing is wrong' in the writing.

The only characters who are never responsible for a death in any routes are Hisui and Arihiko, and I'm not so certain about Arihiko.

Our noble protagonist himself murders at least one person in each route.

The game's message isn't so much "don't kill because you will be punished," as "don't kill because that's a dick thing to do."

[Anonymous No.]

>>7815748
You are speaking so much bullshit I don't even know what to answer to.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7815751

im pretty sure that hisui only has true and good ends. akiha is the only char to have a "normal" end and no good end in the game.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7815750

...Except that he'd had a prior relationship with her, which influenced his decision.

That ended up being the better choice anyway.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7815757
Most of the kills are in self defense. But it never condones killing innocents. Shiki and everyone else sees it as terrible.

This is why SHIKI just cannot and is not saved. He is far too gone and has killed innocents, even if theoretically Shiki could kill only Roa like he does to himself at several points.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7815761
How about you replay the VN again. In Hisui's second end Akiha lives.

[White Ren !YLuFFdRcFQ No.]

>>7815757
The game's message on far side is that the cycle of suffering doesn't stop until someone decides to end it by refusing to play.

Near side is that nothing is eternal, and that everything has an end, so you're better off living for the moments in between.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7815763
>That ended up being the better choice anyway.
>More Bad Ends than any other route
>Only succeed due to Deus Machina
>More innocent people die than any other route

[None !Nipaa0mi0. No.]

>>7815748
No. Sakura never thought she'd get Shirou so his attraction towards her in HF makes Sakura anxious about losing him. Zouken exploits that fear to corrupt her. In the other routes Sakura presents no such opening for Zouken to exploit so he's content to wait for the 6th grail war before using her.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7815766
Not that anon, but that sounds like a good idea. See you Tuesday.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7815723
>this is zouken we're talking about dude. I really REALLY doubt it.
They are my my spine
They are what fills my body
and flows through me as if they were my blood

I have over a thousand bodies
I could be seen as "immortal"
Yet I am slowly dying

Have dedicated many lifetimes in order to fulfill my goal
Yet I somehow cannot remember what that goal was
Because now, my whole body is made out of an infinite number of worms

[Anonymous No.]

>>7815766

I didn't say otherwise, I said there is no "normal end" for Hisui, just True and Good. Akiha dies in True, and is alive in good. Your clip is from the good end which means it's horse shit anyway.

[None !Nipaa0mi0. No.]

>>7815745
No. His original goal was to complete the grail, but he forgot that and prolonging his life became his only goal rather than just a means to an end. He would still desperately try to extend his life even after the destruction of the grail.

To be honest I don't see how Sakura can have a good end in Fate or UBW. Zouken was still planning to have the worms inside her eventually eat her brain and for him to take over her body and there's no reason to think that the grail's destruction would prevent that.

[White Ren !YLuFFdRcFQ No.]

>>7815764
Roa isn't a big concern for SHIKI in far side. SHIKI is totally himself, there. SHIKI's only complaint is that there's a guy in his head that tells him to kill stuff. Then again, he feels like doing that anyway, so it's just sort of funny to SHIKI.

SHIKI can't be saved because his demonic blood is way too strong. There's not enough human left to bother. Even if you capture him, the only thing you can do is throw him back down into the dungeon. That's the same ending as Akiha's tragic end: a bird in a cage, insane and uncontrollable.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7815782

pic to prove there is no normal

[Mirrored No.]

>>7815750

Also I'd argue that Sakura is the most unrealistic.

All of the real romantic relationships that I see people get into... have really short "getting together" stories. Literally, people get together in less than a month of being around each other.

The "staying" together part is what is hard.

Romances, especially Japanese ones, generally try to ignore that. But other than relationships in high school settings where you have to be around a lot of people for a long time, generally movement happens quickly.

Getting together is about the question:
Do we want this to work?

The answer usually comes easily after the question is asked. Yes or no.

Can this work?

Is a question usually asked after the first has been answered. It takes much longer and it's more about logistics and long term compatibility than romance and interest. It' anti-romance.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7815788
It's clearly stated that Zouken is at his last straw with his soul being... whatever he called it.
He can't make any more body transfers, and he can't wait for another Holy Grail War.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7815791
You could train him make him into some sort of crazy vampire hunter that hunts not to save humanity or some crap like that but because he feels like killing dudes and vampires are suitable dudes to be killed.

[None !Nipaa0mi0. No.]

>>7815791
It's possible that his blood would have subsided. Makihisa who was the expert on the subject thought it would after all and the reason it didn't is because Kohaku fed SHIKI her blood and used her drugs to drive him completely insane.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7815804
And for whatever it means, Zouken sees Sakura as the true successor of the Matous. Killing her or sacrificing her body for his would be stupid.

[None !Nipaa0mi0. No.]

>>7815804
No it doesn't. He is slowly dying, but he's perfectly content to wait for the 6th Grail War in Fate and UBW. If he wasn't confident that his body would last a few more decades, wouldn't have gambled and forced Sakura into action even if the circumstances for his plan were unfavorable? It's not as if Shinji has a chance to win and Zouken knows it.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7815829

isn't the grail permanently gone though in all routes?

thats the impression i got anyway.

[None !Nipaa0mi0. No.]

>>7815826
"The old magus didn't even try to hide his intentions, and the girl didn't disobey him. So there was no problem. She was just a piece of flesh that the old magus would eventually take over."

Zouken's plan was to take over her body. That's why he trained her body with worms but didn't really teach her magecraft. And in Fate and UBW there's nothing to stop him from doing that.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7815698
>try to pass Kohaku's end as such a good end and still have the general moral of 'killing is wrong' in the writing
I don't see anything wrong with that. It was a good ending for all of them. It was something like "what Kohaku did was wrong, but I'll support her and share those sins with her".
And even if there is "killing is wrong". there's no "killers should die" thing. It's just you who wants to see her die and calls it bad writing when she doesn't.

[None !Nipaa0mi0. No.]

>>7815832
Yes it is, as it is destroyed when the cavern collapses in HF and Waver comes back and destroys it in Fate and UBW. But Zouken doesn't know that the 5th grail war will be the last before the Grail is destroyed, so he has no reason to assume there won't be a 6th grail war.

[White Ren !YLuFFdRcFQ No.]

>>7815806
Even if Kohaku hadn't done that, SHIKI would've eventually had to give into his bloodline to prevent Roa from taking him over. The only reason Roa doesn't take SHIKI over in far side is because SHIKI's blood thickens so damn fast and he goes full on Tohno heritage.

No matter how you look at it, SHIKI was doomed by the resplendent reincarnating rapist: either he gives in and becomes Roa, or he uses his heritage and becomes a full-on demon. There's no inbetween for SHIKI. He doesn't have Akiha's self-control or old blood.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7815832

From what I can recall it was destroyed in HF, around in the other two. It doesn't matter anyway 'cause that mage guy comes along to dismantle it after.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7815829
>If he wasn't confident that his body would last a few more decades, wouldn't have gambled and forced Sakura into action even if the circumstances for his plan were unfavorable?
He wasn't confident in his body lasting for another war, it was indeed stated that it was severely doubted that it would last. He did see the fifth war to most likely be his last chance.

Thing is though, it's not simply about it being favorable or not, but rather how he didn't want to win the "grail war" normally at all.
Rather he wanted to make use of the ritual to cheat his way through by hijacking it midthrough with his own ritual and his catalyst and grail. He basically didn't even want to bother with how the ritual is meant to undergo normally.

And that simply wouldn't be possible unless Sakura met certain conditions.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7815837
It's because there's basically no atonement or remorse. It's "hey, I killed all those guy knowingly, but it's ok, I have a vagina and a route". No other character in the VN gets away with that. Not even Satsuki, and she does have a vagina.

It's pretty conflicting when you have an emphasis on the value of 'killing is bad'. The atonement doesn't even have to be death, stop forcing that shit on me.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7815846

>waver

is this ataraxia bullshit? I don't remember that in fate

[Anonymous No.]

Q: Sakura only entered the Holy Grail War during her route, but not in others. Although I think she would develop as the “Black Grail” in any other route, why did Zouken only send her into actual combat in Sakura’s Route? Does that mean Zouken was not in the house in the other routes?
Nasu: Actually Sakura would not develop as the “Black Grail” in any other route. However, when she was chosen by Shirou, “the person she does not wish to lose”, the negative emotions she kept bottled up all these years came flooding out, which accelerated the growth of “All the World’s Evil – Angra Mainyu”.

[White Ren !YLuFFdRcFQ No.]

>>7815855
>no remorse

You keep saying that, but she shows obvious remorse in both Hisui's path and her own. She kills herself in Hisui's path because she can handle her own guilt after realizing that she didn't even hate Akiha, and that now that Akiha and SHIKI are gone, she is empty, but not as empty as she thought she was.

In her own path, she throws a wrench in her own plan by going to try and confront Akiha instead of letting Shiki go do it on his own. Kohaku is also the only reason Akiha doesn't kill herself in the end. I mean, when Kohaku is the one having the come to Jesus moment at the cusp of victory, that's a big step on being human.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7815864

That doesn't necessarily mean that she isn't still getting raped/eaten in the other routes though...

[Anonymous No.]

>>7815855
>It's pretty conflicting when you have an emphasis on the value of 'killing is bad'.
>'killing is bad'.
No. This isnt a disney story.
There was never an emphasis on killing is bad.
Shiki the MC basically killed and raped the first blonde girl that he see and guess what? Blonde girl just shrugged it off and even befriended him.
You should stick with disney if you want to read a story about moralfag. If anything, the story instead want you to count on your friends and not keep everything pent up inside like all the characters in tsukihime did.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7815871
For the first part, I have consistently maintained that I find Hisui's end quite good and fitting. Either of them, although the amnesia might be a little soap operaish, but still good enough.

For the second, it's because of the silly promise. She wants to live and live with Shiki. Yes, she wants something for herself, but there is no remorse or atonement for all the lives lost. I don't think she even mentions it like in Hisui's route.

[None !Nipaa0mi0. No.]

>>7815850
Where does he say that his body won't last until the next war? All I recall him saying is that his soul is rotting and that his body used to be able to last fifty years before having to exchange it, but that he had to exchange it every few months at present. I don't think he ever gave an estimate about when he'd die.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7815877
>There was never an emphasis on killing is bad.
Really? It's a pretty fucking big deal in the story. It might not be a main theme, but the value is most certainly there. Shiki doesn't suddenly go all "Oops I killed her, but such is life in Japan", or "Oh well all those people died or are becoming vampires, but who cares.".

[White Ren !YLuFFdRcFQ No.]

>>7815889
It's not just for Shiki. Kohaku saves Akiha because Kohaku cares about Akiha. If Kohaku just wanted to be with Shiki, she could let Akiha impale herself with Shiki's knife and then stumble in later, pretending to arrive late. It would save a lot of trouble later on.

But no, she intervenes willingly, one of the few times she does something of her own desire.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7815903
You are still missing the point of my post. I never said she was still an emotionless doll.

[White Ren !YLuFFdRcFQ No.]

>>7815902
The emphasis isn't that "killing is bad," but that "death is always meaningless." There's nothing gained by killing. Shiki isn't bothered by being the one that killed Sacchin, so much as he's bothered by the fact that he was the one that couldn't save her.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7815920
>"death is always meaningless."
Except when it means food. But Shiki still decided to kill Satsuki because she was going around town killing people.

Call it whatever you want, I gave a general term for it, but the value is definitely there in the story, and isn't even neutral about it like SnU is.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7815890
>I don't think he ever gave an estimate about when he'd die.
I am not the other guy who claimed he wouldn't be likely to live long.

But I am fairly sure there was a sentiment later on that showed him bantering in a relatively desperate manner about the importance of the chance he had gotten this time around, and that although he can exchange bodies he wouldn't be able to do that indefinitely anymore, and shortly put, that he was in a hurry because of it and therefore that chance was important.
Somehow implying other chances wouldn't be all too likely.

Someone should make transcripts of Tsukihime and Fate/Stay Night though, they get talked about often enough for something like that to be useful and clear up a bunch of messes.

[White Ren !YLuFFdRcFQ No.]

>>7815940
Shiki kills Sacchin because Sacchin attempts to turn him into a midnight snack.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7815855
>no remorse or atonement for all the lives lost
I keep wondering why do you say that. Why do you think that just because she has no remorse and doesn't wish to atone is bad writing. Just because some characters like Shiki find killing wrong doesn't make it a theme for the story. Arcueid said that Dead Apostoles show no remorse or atonement for killing humans and they still live. And even Arcueid keeps torturing Ciel and she never acted sorry about that later on. It's just Shiki's perspective and he deals with it accordingly. In fact, I could say that the theme for Kohaku is how Shiki deals with someone who didn't feel guilty about killing innocents, how Shiki is the exact opposite of that and how even despite that he still loves her. And he does go through that in Kohaku's route. And I could also say that the theme is that you will abandon that because of love or that you will share the sins with the person you love the most.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7815968

No matter what, Kohaku's route ends happily. That's all I'm complaining about, at least.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7815953
Shiki kills Sacchin because she wants to turn him into a vampire.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7815968
When most characters other than her who had a hand on killing met retribution, and the VN makes no effort on hiding this fact or making it neutral, I would certainly call it a recurring value. Dead Apostles don't die? The ones that appeared in the VN certainly did. Arcueid is consistently trying not to drink blood despite it being in her nature. Ciel definitely isn't ok with the shit 'she' pulled while she was Roa.
Kohaku suddenly getting a perfect end, not a bittersweet, not a happy end, but a perfect end, feels incredibly off.

>>7815953
He had his mind on killing her. She almost eating him just pushed him into it.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7815992
>When most characters other than her who had a hand on killing met retribution,
Key word being 'most.'

[Anonymous No.]

>>7815992
>When most characters other than her who had a hand on killing met retribution
She dies in Hisui's route. In both ends. In all other routes she lives. In Kohaku's end both Akiha and Kohaku live.
And what retribution? It's normal to kill villains if they are attempting to kill you. At first, Shiki didn't want to have anything to do with it despite them killing people. He wanted to run away, but the only reason he stayed is because it's his fault that Arc is helpless. When they got killed, nowhere did it said or implied "this is a retribution". And Arcueid said the only reason she hunts Dead Apostoles is because she has nothing better to do, not because she wants to protect people. Only two villains got killed in all routes and that's hardly "most characters".
It's normal to see moral characters because they are the majority. It would be unrealistic otherwise, and calling it recurring value just because of that is dumb. I could call it a recurring theme in every work ever where there's murder.

And one of the reasons Kohaku lives is because she won't try to kill Shiki or others anymore.
I think you just interpret it as retribution; when they got killed not because it's morally wrong, but because they are pissing off our main characters. It's more focused on the things villain has done to them than their moral values.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7816110
Should've used "all" since I added "except her".

>>7816125
>She dies in Hisui's route. In both ends. In all other routes she lives. In Kohaku's end both Akiha and Kohaku live.
Wrong though, in the good end she's amnesiac. And that's what I mean. The novel goes from great and very fitting endings to the tone of far side Tsukihime in Hisui to some disney level happy ending in Kohaku. Notice that Akiha never kills anyone despite being almost completely gone in Kohaku.

>I could call it a recurring theme in every work ever where there's murder.
I am not calling it a recurring theme, and if I did at any point I screwed up. It's the value the work gives murder. You can't compare the weight and value murder is given in... let's keep it in VNs, Saya no Uta to Tsukihime. Tsukihime is a *lot* more moralistic about it, despite both being fairly in the same genre.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7816125
Forgot a part
>When they got killed, nowhere did it said or implied "this is a retribution".
That's because it wasn't hamfisted to you. It still pretty much adheres to it almost perfectly, and murder is never seen as a neutral thing, even with Satsuki.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7815748
>I disagree. Keep in mind Nasu has this horrible habit where making different choices will change the actual reality of the scenario.
He never does that. Stop making bullshit up.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7816192
>>When they got killed, nowhere did it said or implied "this is a retribution".
>That's because it wasn't hamfisted to you. It still pretty much adheres to it almost perfectly

Shiki hunts Roa only out of obligation to Arcueid, and he displays no hatred toward Roa or pleasure at his death.

I think you're projecting your own values into this. "I feel that Kohaku should receive retribution, so the fact that she does not is bad writing."

[Anonymous No.]

>>7816160
>Notice that Akiha never kills anyone despite being almost completely gone in Kohaku.
That's because she's only influenced by Roa. Shiki also didn't kill anyone under Roa's influence.
SHIKI killed because of his Tohno blood.

>Tsukihime is a *lot* more moralistic about it
No, Shiki is a lot more moralistic about it. You play from his perspective, so it's only natural. And even then, Shiki didn't want to get involved.

[Mirrored No.]

>>7816241
I don't have either installed or I would hunt for examples where the actual courses of what happens in the world change dramatically from actions that could not have possibly effected them.

I remember it being something that bothered me and that I was able to explain away as alternate worlds. However, I can't prove it and it's been awhile. You may be right, but I don't think you are.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7816353
You can't prove it, because you're wrong.

[Mirrored No.]

>>7816363

I am so mad right now.

Anyways, that's how I remember it.

I also remember feeling that both maids got condensed to make Sakura, that Akiha is basically a prototype for Rin, and that Acrueid is basically a prototype for Saber. Hell, didn't they even have identical McDonald's dates?

[Anonymous No.]

I don't think this thread has exhausted its possibilities.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7816374
>Acrueid is basically a prototype for Saber.
They are literally nothing alike, Arcueid is carefree and her "downfall" was due to her naïveté while Saber is serious to a fault and got fucked over by being too strict.
And yeah, I agree that this "entire world reality changes based on choices" sounds like an asspull.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7820728
Arcueid is also serious to a fault, except that unlike Saber, she almost never fails. Also she didn't drink Roa's blood because she was naive, but because Nasu stated that she was already suffering from the desire to drink blood the first time she and Roa met face to face, also the True Ancestors never told her what she was. And yes, you can't really compare them, since unlike Saber, Arcueid is the best at what she does.

[Anonymous No.]

The development of their routes are similar.
Blond "perfect" heroine suddenly appear in the protagonist life.
They are knowledgeable about lots of stuffs but know nothing about the real world.
The protagonists manage to win them over with their tenacity and the heroines go full dere after an impromptu sexual encounter.
Date where the heroines show how little she knows of the real world and their moe moe side.
Suddenly enemy of the past appear.
But the heroines manage to win by using her hidden true power.
And finally it's good bye, the heroines of course confess just before disappearing.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7821145

>The development of their routes are similar.

Not really. Saber spends a lot more time admonishing Shirou.

>Blond "perfect" heroine suddenly appear in the protagonist life.

Saber is never presented as anything but aesthetically perfect.

>They are knowledgeable about lots of stuffs but know nothing about the real world.

Doesn't apply to Saber.

>The protagonists manage to win them over with their tenacity and the heroines go full dere after an impromptu sexual encounter.

Arcueid became interested in Shiki after watching his personality in general, not just his tenacity.

>Date where the heroines show how little she knows of the real world and their moe moe side.

Saber shows nothing of the sort.

>Suddenly enemy of the past appear.

Roa has a much stronger connection to Arc than Gil does to Saber. Gil has nothing to do with Saber's actual life.

>But the heroines manage to win by using her hidden true power.

None of Arcueid's powers are hidden, and Arcueid didn't win any of the fights she was involved in Tsukihime (except crushing Ciel in her route).

>And finally it's good bye, the heroines of course confess just before disappearing.

Oh boy finally A SINGLE CONNECTION.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7821145
Most of that is a staple of the genre, not just of Nasu. Take the disappearing ending away and it could be literally dozens of characters.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7821136
>Nasu stated that she was already suffering from the desire to drink blood the first time she and Roa met face to face
[citation needed]

Prior to getting tricked by Roa, Arc had zero desire to drink blood. That was the whole point of her being the executor of the TAs.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7821160
>executor
>executioner

Whoops. Now, I'm thinking about Starcraft.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7821151

Also regarding
>Suddenly enemy of the past appear.

Roa didn't "suddenly" appear, the entire reason Arcueid is in the goddamn town is because Roa is there.

Nrnvqsr was way more sudden than Roa ever was.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7821153
Their entire routes follow that staple.

Tell me another eroge that has a route like this.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7821160
>Prior to getting tricked by Roa, Arc had zero desire to drink blood

This was never explicitly stated, it was only stated that the True Ancestors thought she didn't have vampiric impulses, since she has the ultimate body. But the vampiric impulse was a flaw the original Crimson Moon already had that got passed over.

Got the answer to that from this http://www.typemoon.org/etc/zadan/zadan1.html

Arc was apparently suffering from the desire to drink blood for the very first time in the garden. Roa came up to her from behind (this was the first time they came face to face with each other by the way), asked her if she was in pain, then got blood sucked by her and died on the spot.

Once he revived, he stayed away from her and only met her during their showdown, but they didn't talk to each other even then.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7821180
Ah, thanks.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7821171

Meiya:
Rich "perfect" heroine suddenly appear in the protagonist life.
Knowledgeable about lots of high-class stuffs but know nothing about the real world.
The protagonist manage to win her over through his frankness and the heroine goes full dere
Date where the heroines show how little she knows of the real world and their moe moe side.
Suddenly enemy of the past (her marriage arrangement) appear.
Either she wins through love or she disappears to make way to Sumika.

[None !Nipaa0mi0. No.]

>>7820728
In F/SN that doesn't happen. Shirou's choices are what cause all the divergences between routes.

In Tsukihime there is the difference of whether Roa or SHIKI is dominant in SHIKI's body in Near and Far side routes respectively, which doesn't seem to be due to Shiki's choices.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7821330
I think Shiki's choices change how Kohaku treats SHIKI and whether he gets taken over by Roa or his blood. Maybe.

[None !Nipaa0mi0. No.]

>>7821341
Shiki arrives right before the events start. It seems pretty unlikely to me that Kohaku could have such an effect at such short notice even if Shiki caused her to drastically change her plans due to some unexplained reason.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7821359
Wild guess, but couldn't Shiki's presence in the mansion have an effect? Since he's never home in the Near Side stories, perhaps Kohaku believed he grew out of being the boy she knew and became estranged to the affairs of the Tohno family. I think she was pretty much on the fence between whether to enact her revenge plot or not and that caused her to decide against it.

Pure conjecture, of course. Just being a Nasu apologist. Haven't reread the VN in ages.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7821330

The difference IS in Shiki's choices, but only one of Shiki's choices: to investigate the barking "dogs" and therefore have a brush with vampires, which makes him run into Arcueid, which makes SHIKI not give much of a fuck anymore and let Roa take over.

If he stays at home, he gets closer to his family (Akiha), which pisses SHIKI right the fuck off and makes him retain control until he gets what he wants.

Roa himself said he couldn't get proper control of his host until SHIKI satisfied his urges, in Arcueid's route. That's why he approached Shiki on the road, and attacked him at the school -- Roa doesn't really give a damn, but SHIKI can't stand him even if he's not interested in Akiha.

But when he gets close to Akiha and the maids, SHIKI goes into a wild rage and Roa gets no control because his desires are not only unfulfilled, but completely betrayed.


The fact that the shift is a minor check-up with Nrvnqsr is a bit iffy though, but consider it more like how HF only happens when Shirou shows closeness to Sakura.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7821401
Addendum: The reason that I'm focusing so much on Kohaku is because her abilities have an effect on how much SHIKI is affected by his blood.