/jp/ - Otaku Culture

[Anonymous No.]

[Anonymous No.]

Shame it doesn't work in real life unless you have money.

[Anonymous No.]

Cool macro. Did you make it yourself?

[Anonymous No.]

>>8707443
Yes :)

[Anonymous No.]

"Is it really *my* fault that every girl is falling over me? Or is this show trying to make a point?"

[Anonymous No.]

But he does have a personality, misogynistic and dense as hell. So it's not that unrealistic

[Anonymous No.]

>>8707443
I can vaguely make out a watermark in the lower-right.
He didn't even use Adobe® Photoshop™ himself!

[Anonymous No.]

>>8707467
Makoto's looks and charisma are unmatched

[Anonymous No.]

>>8707471

>But he does have a personality, misogynistic and dense as hell.

At no point does Shirou act misogynistic and he is actually quite intelligent, simply lacking any understanding of the idea of subtext.

Something tells me you only watched the anime.

[Anonymous No.]

Going on a tangent, on my quest to complete various VN I've started years ago, recently I read Snow Sakura again.

There's this weird scene there, where the girls get drunk, and get all over the MC, saying shit like "why are you so nice?".

The problem? He didn't do anything particularly nice to any of them before. Hell, he barely interacted with some. It's like the fact that protagonist is "nice" is self-explanatory, and doesn't warrant actually, you know, showing to the reader, as they will assume this on their own.

[Anonymous No.]

Shirou is just a dumb jock

[Anonymous No.]

>>8707534
>At no point does Shirou act misogynistic
Oh, you're one of those.

[Anonymous No.]

>>8707543
What you're thinking of isn't misogynistic in the least.

[Anonymous No.]

>>8707543

Shirou did not want Saber to fight. Shirou didn't want anyone to fight. In Shirou's world, he's the only one who fights. All the swords belong to him, and he is no-one. Even if someone else is massively more powerful than him (Saber), from the way Shirou perceives the world, he is the only one who should fight.
The idea that someone would be hurt because of him is something that terrifies Shirou above anything else. He can't adequately explain this to Tohsaka and Saber, so when they were asking him what the hell was going through his mind, he scrambled for something to say, and just defaulted to "Girls shouldn't fight". He didn't mean it at all, or rather, he couldn't explain that he doesn't want anyone to fight but himself.

[Anonymous No.]

>>8707471
Misogynistic: All women are whores!
Chauvanistic: Women shouldn't fight. Their place is in the home.

[Anonymous No.]

>>8707569

Of which Shirou is neither. Shirou wants nobody to fight. He is the blade works, nobody owns the blades. Even in a blatantly contradictory set of rules like being a Master, where if he dies, Saber probably dies anyway, he doesn't want Saber to have to fight.

[Anonymous No.]

>>8707558
>>8707572
Suuuuure kid, whatever you say.

[Anonymous No.]

>>8707577

Yeah you've only watched the anime. Get out of /jp/.

[Anonymous No.]

>>8707577
lol u mad

[Anonymous No.]

My Life: The Image Macro

[Anonymous No.]

>>8707558
So he's basically the embodiment of every protagonist stereotype ever...

[Anonymous No.]

>>8707589

A deconstruction of it, really. Shirou's life is heroism to a fault, and he brings mountains of suffering on himself because of it.

[Anonymous No.]

That's not Touma

[Anonymous No.]

>>8707558
>>8707572
>>8707580
>>8707601
Is this what Type-Moons fans really believe?

Because that's hilarious.

[Anonymous No.]

>>8707603
It's what anyone who paid attention while reading the VN would believe.

[Anonymous No.]

>>8707601
Isn't that what all the stereotypical shounen protagonists do?

[Anonymous No.]

Oh god, it's turning into PotC thread.

[Anonymous No.]

>>8707621
You got a problem with strong independent womyn?

[Anonymous No.]

since when is slight machism considered misogyny?

[None !Nipaa0mi0. No.]

>>8707543
Shirou doesn't want Seiba to fight in Fate because in the fist fight she gets stabbed in the heart by Lancer and then almost killed by Berserker. In UBW where she manages to hold her own against Berserker he's much more willing to let her fight.

[Anonymous No.]

All you had to do was follow the damn topic, /jp/

[Anonymous No.]

All of you saying Shirou is not a misogynist must be men. Trust me, his treatment of women throughout the various routes is very misogynistic.

[Anonymous No.]

>>8707657
I don't think you know what mysogyny is.

[Anonymous No.]

>>8707658
No, I don't think YOU know what misogyny is. How can you presume to know about something you can't be a victim of?

[Anonymous No.]

>>8707667
Right, now I know you're a troll, never mind then.

[Anonymous No.]

>>8707671
I'm sorry Anon, just because your misogyny has manifested in the form of bitterness does not make that the full spectrum of the phenomenon. Although, in your shut-in world I would assume you couldn't imagine anything broader. Even if I was trolling, you would still be wrong.

[Anonymous No.]

>>8707677

[Anonymous No.]

>>8707677
So what you're saying is, any response toward a female that is deemed offensive by said female, is misogyny?

[Anonymous No.]

Sure is /a/ shitposters/normalfags in here.

[Anonymous No.]

>>8707704
What I'm saying is your experience with misogyny does not define the issue. Looking down on women, failing to trust them with tasks "meant for a man" is misogynistic discrimination. Why does it kill you so much that your favorite protag is a misogynist?

[Anonymous No.]

>>8707710
Every post you didn't like ever made on /jp/ is clearly the work of /a/.

[Anonymous No.]

>>8707746

[Anonymous No.]

Female here, Shirou isn't a misogynist.

[Anonymous No.]

The poor lad just doesn't want women to suffer. How is that misogyny? He is a fucking white knight!

[Anonymous No.]

>>8707746
He doesn't want anyone to suffer. That is COMPLETELY separate from his treatment of women as inferior beings. Christ you people are dense.

[Anonymous No.]

>>8707737
>>8707744

[Anonymous No.]

I didn't read the thread, but I just wanted to say women are shallow whores. And I don't care if that's misogynist.

[Anonymous No.]

>>8707758
Which is why he engages in typically feminine roles like cooking and cleaning, am I right?

Also, I request of you in which scenes he treated women as inferior. Quote it.

[Anonymous No.]

ORT > Gil > Berserker (5th) > Dark Sakura > F15 Zero Berserker > Dark Saber ≧ Arcueid = Saber > Archer = Lancer = Rider (5th) = Zero Caster's Sea Demon (Gilles de Rais is Zero Caster) > Zero Rider > Kojirou > Zero Berserker > Nrvnqsr = Caster (5th) > Aoko = Kouma = Zero Lancer > HF Shirou = Zelretch sword Rin = Zero Caster ≧ Zero Hassan ≧ Ciel ≧ Shiki Ryougi (3rd) > Bazett ≧ 5th Hassan ≧ Akiha Tohno > Souren Araya = Kirei Kotomine = UBW Shirou ≧ Kiritsugu ≧ Fujino Asagami ≧ Kuzuki Souchirou ≧ Rin ＞ Avenger ＞ Avalon Shirou = Kayneth El-Melloi ＞ 18th Roa = young Kirei Kotomine ＞ Touko = Shiki Tohno = Zouken Matou ≧ female Ryougi Shiki ≧ Cornelius Alba ＞ Kiri Nanaya ＞ Karen Ortensia ≧ Tokiomi Tohsaka = Maiya Hisau ＞ Leysritt ≧ SHIKI Tohno ＞ Nanaya = Satsuki Yumizuka ＞ Lio Shirazumi > Kariya Matou ≧ Irisviel von Einzbern ≧ Sakura ＞ The Dead = Possessed Corpse ＞ Misaya Ouji ＞Azaka Kokutou ＞ Dragon Tooth Warrior ≧ dead body ＞ Shinji Matou > Manchildren that can't comprehend misogyny

[Anonymous No.]

shirou is a chauvinist with old-fashioned views on gender roles. he doesn't hate women.

a lot of his stupider sounding lines in the visual novel are at least partially the result of awkward translation.

[Anonymous No.]

>>8707785
There we go, the word everybody was confusing with misogynist

[Anonymous No.]

>>8707773
I am not going to reinstall FSN and scour through it for snapshots of things just because you obviously didn't read it, Anon. Shirou's motivation at stopping Saber from fighting was due to her sex.

[Anonymous No.]

Only retarded women would think Shiro is misogynistic.

One of those "why should a man hold the door open for me?! He must think i'm weak and pathetic."

[Anonymous No.]

>>8707799
But they are weak and pathetic.

[Anonymous No.]

>>8707785
>>8707793
No, that's not right and it's also a mistake to believe they are mutually exclusive. What defines Shirou as a misogynist is that his perspective is "women are not suited for this role", not "I am better than women".

[Anonymous No.]

>>8707799
But that's actually a very condescending thing to do, Anon.

[Anonymous No.]

>>8707806
>no it's not right
>because otherwise I'd look like a retarded woman
Please, understand I have nothing against you

[Anonymous No.]

>>8707816
Your lack of ill intent does not suddenly make your argument grounded.

[Anonymous No.]

>>8707806
Chauvinism (in the gender sense) is patronizing females because of a belief in their inferiority or that they need to stay in certain roles

Misogyny is outright hatred of women which is clearly not applicable in this case

[Princess of the Crystal !!icIm/7OlYEI No.]

This is actually the sort of discussion I tried to have before... I think FSN is actually pretty interesting in terms of feminist/sexist themes...

Shirou is a Husbando.

[Anonymous No.]

>>8707827
>Misogyny is outright hatred of women
See, this is where you're mistaken. Misogyny does not have to be outright, and the attachment to the word hatred is what catches most people. Hatred is not a simple black and white thing. Even beyond that, do you realize how silly it is to try to make chauvinism and misogyny out to be completely different things?

[Anonymous No.]

>>8707839
The word misogyny is literally the combination of the greek words for "hate" and "women," and the hatred of women is exactly how it is defined in any dictionary.

While the two are obviously closely related and go hand-in-hand in many cases, it is possible to be a chauvinist without hating women

[Princess of the Crystal !!icIm/7OlYEI No.]

Keep in mind that Shirou is only really chauvinistic in the Fate route, and that's largely after seeing a bit chunk being taken out of Saber.

I think in the other routes he has a much healthier relationship with Saber - and interestingly enough, he's stronger in those routes too.

Could Shirou's sexism actually be down to his own feelings of inferiority? I am weak, I couldn't help Saber. How can this girl be stronger than me. etc. etc.

I don't think Shirou is a bad guy of course, just naive, which is kind of the point of his character.

[Anonymous No.]

>>8707830
That's funny, because I've just been trolling this entire time about the whole misogyny thing.

[Anonymous No.]

>>8707847
If I say, "Black people should not participate.", is it hate speech?

[Anonymous No.]

>>8707848
There was an interview posted the other day where the writer basically said that Shirou's emphasis on Saber's gender in Fate was basically just his awkward attempt to make readers conscious of her as 'female' despite her flatly masculine behavior, and that he regretted using such a blunt tool after the fact.

[Anonymous No.]

>>8707864
Bad analogy

[Anonymous No.]

>>8707874
No, you just have a bad understanding of hatred.

[Anonymous No.]

>>8707876
You can't compare blacks to women, go troll somewhere else

[Anonymous No.]

>>8707878
Why not, or was that supposed to be ironic?

[Anonymous No.]

Shirou is not chauvinistic. Shirou does not want Saber to stay out of combat because she is a girl. Shirou does not want anyone to fight and it causes him great personal tragedy to see anyone harmed because of him, and Berserker was in the middle of smashing up Saber.

Shirou does not Sakura to be in the kitchen because she is a girl. Shirou and Sakura are good friends and both enjoy cooking, so if one is up before the other, they can naturally assume the other has begun cooking breakfast.

Seriously, you're assuming Shirou has any predisposition against women, when it all comes from one line, "Girls should be fighting", when that's just a lie by omission: in Shirou's opinion, NOBODY BUT HIM should be fighting. Men and women included.

[Anonymous No.]

Shirou is not chauvinistic. Shirou does not want Saber to stay out of combat because she is a girl. Shirou does not want anyone to fight and it causes him great personal tragedy to see anyone harmed because of him, and Berserker was in the middle of smashing up Saber.

Shirou does not Sakura to be in the kitchen because she is a girl. Shirou and Sakura are good friends and both enjoy cooking, so if one is up before the other, they can naturally assume the other has begun cooking breakfast.

Seriously, you're assuming Shirou has any predisposition against women, when it all comes from one line, "Girls should not be fighting", when that's just a lie by omission: in Shirou's opinion, NOBODY BUT HIM should be fighting. Men and women included.

[Anonymous No.]

>>8707886
Because woman are still human, even if a lower breed.

[Anonymous No.]

>>8707794
No, anon, this was the reason why.

[Anonymous No.]

>>8707886
Not the same guy, but sexism doesn't make a good 1:1 comparison with racism, if only because differentiation along sexual lines is in some part the product of biological realities. Men can't give birth, for one thing, and there's a whole tangle of psychology we have evolved / instincts that come out of that.

[Anonymous No.]

Pft tis threa oH fod

[Anonymous No.]

>>8707942
What would you propose the differences between races are based on, if not biology?

[Anonymous No.]

>>8707989

Are you seriously trying to compare race with sex?

Really?

[Anonymous No.]

>>8707996
As being the basis of demographics as well as labels targeted by hatred? Are you typically this dense, or do you just get this way after seeing the word "women"?

[Anonymous No.]

>>8707989
Races are social constructs - they're groupings human beings made up along arbitrary lines that have a lot to do with culture and class. There is no significant genetic or biological difference between any two given races.

[Anonymous No.]

>>8708012

Not sure if srs

[Anonymous No.]

>>8708036
Here's some practice, tell me how you would determine someone's race without asking them.

[Anonymous No.]

>>8708055
I don't appreciate her calling us dense all the time

[Anonymous No.]

>>8707922
this

[Anonymous No.]

>>8708052
I'm not saying that races are not real. I'm saying that they are arbitrary groupings based on biologically insignificant characteristics (melanin levels in skin, etc). Our discrimination on the racial level are the product of cultural associations, and don't have evolutionary psychology associated with them, unlike our differing perceptions of women against men.

[Anonymous No.]

>>8708102
So what you're saying is that if you discriminate based on insignificant biological differences it's hatred, but if you discriminate because of insignificant biological differences it's not?

[Anonymous No.]

>>8708129
I'm saying that because concepts of sexual difference are ingrained in the psychology of every single human being, it's possible for a man to think "women shouldn't join the army" without actively hating women. Not saying that isn't sexist and backwards thinking, just that it doesn't necessarily imply HATRED of women.

I don't think the same is true of a person who thinks "blacks shouldn't join the army." Can you see that those two feel a little different?

[Anonymous No.]

>>8708223
So what you're saying instead is that hatred caused by social psychology is different than hatred caused by social psychology? Can you see how you're just trying to minimize the issue of misogyny?

[Anonymous No.]

>>8708312
>Can you see that those two feel a little different?
y/n

[Anonymous No.]

>>8708328
Can you see that I can create questions to try to trap you as well?

[Anonymous No.]

>>8708312
That's not remotely what I said. I don't think chauvinism arises only from hatred, because our evolutionary psychology is a strong influence on our thinking about gender roles.

[Anonymous No.]

It may or may not be irrelevant to this discussion, but I'd like to point out that racism generally didn't exist for a long time. Sure, there was xenophobia and nationalism and shit, but that was more of a "we don't want foreigners" rather than being prejudiced against any group in particular.

As far as I know, blacks in particular were treated fairly until people started needing cheap labor in the Americas. And then, slowly, discrimination against them became the norm. But usually, in the past, one acquired slaves from the nations they conquered, and there wasn't anything like "this person is of X race, so he should be a slave."

On the contrary, discrimination against women has existed since thousands of years ago at the least... And there's a bunch of complicated reasons why that happened. It wasn't merely because of some economical need.

Humans must reproduce, because they are animals. Therefore, distinction must be made between the genders. Men and women dress differently, and have different expectations placed upon them. It's also a fact that women are generally not as physically strong as men, and that they are the ones who bear children and can breastfeed them. This would naturally make someone reach a conclusion like "men fight and do work while women raise children and tend to the home." But that conclusion did not come from a hatred of women. It came from a simple question of "who is better suited for what role?"

What I don't understand, though, is why there ever came to be some notion of "this is the way it HAS to be." That does not logically follow. It seems to me more like humans are just scared of change, and have tiny brains.

[Anonymous No.]

>>8708361
Wow, nice bullshit thesis, Einstein.

[Anonymous No.]

>>8708374
The first half of it is backed up by reliable data from my education. The second is my hypothesis, but it is at least true that gender discrimination runs deeper than racial discrimination, and has existed for a much longer time.

[Anonymous No.]

>>8708361
No point reasoning with a troll

[Princess of the Crystal !!icIm/7OlYEI No.]

>>8708361

Early human societies were pretty egalitarian.

[Anonymous No.]

>>8707543
>>8707546

Shirou was being transphobic, guys.

Saber was a boy until Shirou forced her to become a girl. Nasu and Gen agree, don't bother them about it.

[Anonymous No.]

>>8708361
>What I don't understand, though, is why there ever came to be some notion of "this is the way it HAS to be."

In the case of women, we've got instincts programmed into our brain pushing against the idea of equality, even when in the modern world it makes sense in many respects.

Racism is more arbitrary but also more severe, because it isn't modulated by the protective instincts men have for women - we just plug in a given group into the mental role of "hostile outsiders."

[Princess of the Crystal !!icIm/7OlYEI No.]

Talking about racism on /jp/ is generally a bad idea unless you want athens to dump his pseudo-intellectual racist waffle all over the thread.

[Anonymous No.]

>>8708361
>This would naturally make someone reach a conclusion like "men fight and do work while women raise children and tend to the home." But that conclusion did not come from a hatred of women. It came from a simple question of "who is better suited for what role?"
Nnnot entirely. At least "girls shouldn't fight" doesn't come from them being unsuited for that role. The thing is (or rather, was), males are expendable while females aren't. One guy can pollute shitload of women, while one woman can only make that much kids before crapping out during the birth.
So males have been used for cannon fodder for thousands of years while females were sitting in their caves.
At this point though, it's just a discrimination though (against males at that), as females don't really have that much value anymore. The question of maintaining the stable population doesn't really stand anymore.

[Anonymous No.]

>>8708411
Go to sleep, athens.

[Anonymous No.]

>>8708389
I don't think this is entirely true, especially when looking at Europe, but it depends on how early we're talking about here.

>>8708405
Instincts? I don't follow. Well, maybe it's true. I always thought it was just clinging to tradition.

>>8708416
This does make plenty of sense.

[Anonymous No.]

>>8707608

The difference is that Shirou's 'ideals' are presented like a mental defect and completely fucking unhealthy. He's like Kotomine, an empty man, in all routes.

Maybe not in HF at the end, since he begins to shatter and reborn to enjoy a peaceful domestic life of a normalfag.

[Anonymous No.]

>>8707848

He's acting that way because of bad writing. Nasu and Gen were speaking about it. Because Nasu tried to make Saber a girl, by reinforcing it via Shirou.

[Anonymous No.]

>>8708565
He was convincing himself that Saber was a girl, which was a stupid thing to do. Hell, even Takeuchi considers both the prototype and the Fate route as equals.

[Anonymous No.]

>>8708643
He was convincing the readers that Saber was a girl because the authors didn't know how to write a convincing tomboy character

[Anonymous No.]

>>8708658
The only thing I needed to be convinced is that Shirou saw a (an amazingly gorgeous) girl in front of him when he summoned Saber. That was all it took.

[Anonymous No.]

>>8708429
>Instincts? I don't follow.
I think he means how (sexually) a man is dominant and a woman submissive, and both parties (usually) prefer it this way.

[Anonymous No.]

just stopping by to say that Tohsaka craves cock.

[Anonymous No.]

it's "i'm slave"