/lit/ - Literature

>>11017150
Ensured 300+ replies of back and forth from people who haven't read Lacan. Good job you absolute faggot.

>>11017150
>taking psychoanalysis seriously

ayy

>>11017150
It's pretty straightforward. He means jealousy is a pathology.

>>11017150
His claims are speculative at best and irrational at worse. He's reacting to a percieved situation rather than the truth content of it. If you think of a number and have me guess it and I guess it correctly, that doesn't mean I actually made a rational judgement.

>>11017150
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NpEZnxMamag

Fuck you, stop posting duplicate threads. And to answer you, in a mirror stage, the child sees the world and tries to emulate it; it's by emulating and simulating others behaviours that a child grows to create it's own personality, albeit a "fake" one, however, we end up internalizing this things so much we actually end up sending all of our true impulses to our inconscious (the Logos), or id in the freudian tradition; which creates a dissonance we can never escape from (am I myself (moi) or am I the other-as-me (je)?), which in turns leads to angst and ressentiment, which in turn, is targeted to the outer world (usually this stage begins when we are entering adolescence); as the Other has it's greatest embodiment in someone we love (objet petit A), we tend to place in it everything from our Logos, the things we love, the things we hate, and turn it into an image-of-itself, where we hide the real thing behind a veil of lies, so what we love is actually behind an image, and what we hate as well; we don't want to risk losing it, because if we do, all that energy is reverted back to us; however, this creates a constant state of anxiety in the moi (not so much in the je); note that it's the loss of the image that scares us, not losing the actual Other; and being jealous is just another way of us being in constant fear of entering in contact with our Logos, which in turn, means your mother will die in her sleep tonight if you don't reply to this post.

>>11017211
plz

FYI Pathology doesn't make something inherently bad, we are literally always in a pathology. Jealousy is a pathology irrespective of outside facts

>>11017202
Most accurate

>>11017229
fact is though, we're against cuckoltry here. It legtimizes white genocide. Lacan was inspired by (((Freud))) and used postmodernist thinking to denigrate not only whiteness, but also masculinity

>>11017269
>yfw sociopathic irony faggots created the substrate of vapid nihilism necessary for people who unironically act like hunter-killer propaganda bot repeater boxes to colonize online forums and destabilize, fracture and polarize american political epistemology

>>11017269
He didn't actually, if you read Lacan you'd realize he's actually far more of a student of )))Heidegger((( and the most intelligent critic of Postmodernism in history.
Lacan is unequivocly /our guy/

>>11017162
>not taking the unconscious mind seriously

>>11017211
FUCK you

>>11017202
the absolute potency

>>11017150
tl;dr whoredom is the natural state of woman, dont fight what you can't change

You need to see what the husband achieves with being jealous and what kind of identity he creates for himself.

>>11017150
Change the hypothetical from "man thinks wife is cheating" to "man thinks George Bush blew up the twin towers," and you may better see the point. Just because your crazy conspiracy theory turned out to be correct doesn't mean you weren't crazy in the first place.

>>11017211
fug

>>11017202
i had to

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETjIqPjq8xM

>>11017211
Great post.

>>11017150
Does he think the wifes cheating is any less pathological? Are normal human reactions and actions just something bad for him similar to the dsm?

>>11017211
She won't die. SHE'LL BE BRUTALLY MURDERED

It means that he is a cuckold.

>>11017572
someone finally got it right

>>11017150
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SkSV4xyKkds

>>11017293
Not the previous guy, but from what I've read of him he sounded far far more interested in a "return to Freud" than an exaltation Heidegger. Have you read a lot of his writing, if so what in particular makes you say so?

>>11017150
women are objects and therefore repleacable when defective

>>11017211
damn

Emotional states are reactionary mechanisms of the human mind.

>>11019025
so everyone on /pol/ is patholocial?

>>11017291
Big things have small beginnings

>>11019495
spooky

>>11019508
>/leftypol/ transplant who calls random things spooky

>>11019527
I know you are but what am I?

>>11019546

>>11019556
More to share?

>>11019562
You people are worse than /pol/ desu. They at least try to be genuine people, they just have shitty views. You're not genuine, you sit on your little website and plan out how you're going to shill other people to believe your bullshit.

>>11017150
I have seen this happen too many times to too many friends.
They assume so much and they don't want to accept their assumptions may be incorrect even when confronted with evidence that proves otherwise; basically ensuring that they will drive their better half away for a saner partner.

>>11019587
You can't help yourself, can you? I only pointed out that you wrote a spooky thing and now you're in full paranoid mode, ranting at your computer about shilling bullshit, denying you're /pol/ and playing with monkey pictures. It's sad, really.

>>11019556
mink fur pink like the ass on baboon

>>11019621

>>11019527
>>11019556
>>11019587
Go get a goddamn dictionary and look up the word "spooky" then you may continue your "argument"
Stop projecting political bullshit anywhere you can, dolt.

>>11019657
You sure love posting memes. Good for you.

>>11019669
Just stop replying bud, you got called on your bullshit now take it like a man and walk away. Nobody wants your shit-tier transfer memes posted everywhere.

>>11019688
hahahaha

>>11017327
Cuck

>>11017211
There have to be thousands of people reading posts like this every day for years now, meaning it in all likelihood will have happened at least once that someone did NOT reply to a post like this and their mother actually died in her sleep that day

>>11019704
:)
welc anon, see the egg on his face.

>>11017211

>my mind projects things that are not real
>nobody ever said that before psychology
>true true reality is behind my projections

WOW WELL DONE LAKANT

>>11017177
why is it a pathology? what's healthy? is it ever correct to be jealous, or should you take anything ever as if it doesn't matter?

>>11017229
if we are always in a pathology what's the point of calling it a pathology if it's just a normal state?

>>11017338
why is not being jealous a healthy identity?

>>11017572
>>11019012
i don't get it, is believing anything happened a pathology?

>>11019025
grandstanding is not an argument

>>11019390
what's a non-emotional, non-reactionary state of the mind?

>>11017150
Reminder that paternity testing is illegal in France. Lacan means to further pave the way for cuckoldry.

Leave it to the French to claim that cuckoldry is not abject enough.

>>11019688
Stop telling us what we want JEW

>>11020032
>if we are always in a pathology what's the point of calling it a pathology if it's just a normal state?

Because there's different pathologies you fucking retard. Right now you're in the pathology of being a hysterical imbecile

>>11017211

>>11017150
That Lacan regards not only basic human emotions but the notion that pacts should be respected as pathological. However, I find it curious that he finds betrayal completely acceptable and that this radical acceptance is not pathological instead.

He would be correct if symbiosis wouldn't exist between various objects. The fruit needs to be eaten.

>>11020429
>he finds betrayal completely acceptable

Where are you getting this from?

>>11020441
>even if what a jealous husband claims about his wife (that she sleeps around with other men) is all true, his jealousy is still pathological
You do know what husband and wife means, right? Together forever, abandoning all others as partners?

>>11020445
That's not what I asked. Where did you come to the belief Lacan finds betrayal acceptable?

>>11020452
>if the claims are all true
That part. He states that the reaction shouldn't be jealousy; ie, the man should not want the pact to be upheld.

>>11020458
>He states that the reaction shouldn't be jealousy

Lacan never said this at all

>>11020419
but why call them pathological if there's no such thing as normality? just call them different normal states, that are just like any other normal state

>The brilliant ethnologist Lucien Sebag killed himself at 32 after having been been discharged abruptly from treatment - because Lacan wanted to sleep with Sebag's teenage daughter. Not that Dr Lacan was always so constrained by such exquisite moral scruples. He frequently chose his mistresses from his training analysts (who were additionally vulnerable because they relied on him for the pass necessary for them to practise as Lacanian analysts) and also from his ordinary analysands

>>11020429

He IS French.

>>11020470
>pathologies are a ok
There are words that indicate the correct stance towards them, pathology is one of them, you arbitrary fuck.

>>11020493
because if they are just normal states then you can't sell your "cure" to normies, so better call them pathological, but also imply that there's no such thing as healthiness so you can keep milking the cow and bringing up new pathologies as long as the dupes buy it

>>11017211
Damn

>>11020497
>the virgin behaviorist
>the chad lacan

>>11020505
>There are words that indicate the correct stance towards them

Yeah if you're a fucking idiot, you realise he wasn't even speaking English

>>11020493
>but why call them pathological if there's no such thing as normality?

Why call things colors if there's no such thing as the normal color? His goal is to understand what is going through his patients minds

>>11020751
why use a charged word then? you wouldn't call all colors "ugly" if there's no such thing as neutral or a beautiful color, or at least you shouldn't

>>11019939
Yes, that chimp poster was quite retarded.

>>11020445
>Together forever, abandoning all others as partners?
That's a fantasy. You're always alone. Your partner is a fantasy too.

>>11020841
>why use a charged word then?

Because he expects an intelligent audience that won't assume his entire intellectual system based on bad feelings about a single word. He uses the word pathology because that is the accurate term to describe a form of pathos.

>>11020885
>>11020885
what if im a fantasy too? then we match breddy nicely

>>11020892
buddhism did it better though

>>11020897
Buddhism is for spooked up retards who can't handle existing

>>11020897
Did what?

>>11020892
>Because he expects an intelligent audience
Lacan was a hack. He expected the opposite of an intelligent audience.

>>11020900
says the guy that calls everything pathological

>>11017150
Men are naturally possessive and jealous, i guess.

It's true. There's a reason men care much less if their girlfriend/wife has a lesbian affair.

>>11020909
But of course. How could it not be

>>11020915
a good reason

>>11020915
>>11020923
Plus gay couples experience much less jealousy as well.

My gay friends don't really care if their partners cheat, as long as they knew about it apparently.

>>11020931
that's because there's no such thing as a gay couple

Lacan threads are always a mess lol

That's actually a very important point specially because it seems to be lacking in other perspectives and it's not so hard to grasp.

First of all, he is not saying "all jealous people are ill" or something of that kind. He is coming from "a man that claims" something, that is, a patient is bringing his idea of the world and how it is bothering him. The point is that regardless if it's true or not that his wife is cheating him, the issue he has to deal with in analysis is his own jealousy. The pathology is not in that "he thinks something that isn't", but that his very thinking is hurting him.

There are stories about issues that stem from this. For example, the patient who thought his academic papers sucked. The analyst asked to see them and later got back to him saying the papers were fine. The patient struggled with that analyst later and iirc, Lacan himself warned that analyst about how that brought trouble. The suffering that the guy was coming about with his papers and that he could tell about to the analyst is now facing a wall, because the analyst is then just one more person with an opinion on his papers. That's why you can't produce judgement in that way, even if good judgement, the analyst is not there to give you gratification or to tell how things are on top of what you are saying (master's discourse), but to listen to what you are saying.

An analyst may investigate the analysand's own speak ("you think your wife is cheating, but what about the other thing you said, how does that fit in?") and even lead to a change of view from the patient (including the opposite, to also make an otherwise trusting husband jealous if he realizes something suspicious in session), but only because it is supported by the patient's words and realized by the patient himself. However, the job of the analyst is not to investigate for an outside truth that would determine how the patient should think (basically all of society does that already, analysis takes a rest from it).

To Lacan, not only we can make up stories to use as excuses, but reality itself can be an excuses to support our own fantasies about the world. Just like you can lie with a lot of facts (while disregarding others). That's why one does not even go there, it doesn't matter in the slightest if the woman is cheating or not, because if she is, then how does the husband deals with it? And if she is not, then what other things are making the husband feel like so? Both are accessible through what he says in analysis.

Think about it this way. If you are not sure if it's going to rain or not, taking an umbrella with you is a sensible decision. If at the end of the day it doesn't rain but you carried your umbrella around, even if it was a nuissance, your decision early on was still a sensible one. Taking the umbrella is what you do with what you have.

>>11020947
Yeah but what about this strawman I formed about his entire system from that one sentence and Peterson telling me French people are bad

>>11020915
I would assume it's an evolved trait given how paternity works. Just sperm competition.

>>11017305
>taking seriously unscientific bullshit

Nah nigga

>>11020947
Doesn't negative human emotion serve as a means to spur people into action regarding their survival and genetic propagation? Suppressing one's jealousy (or perceiving it as not being useful) would lead to those men caring less about cheating, which would then lead to their genes being slightly less likely to pass on that men who, all other traits being equal, actually give a shit about having a monopoly on their wives' wombs, who then are more likely to pass on those genes for jealousy.

>>11021039
>evolutionary psychology
countering one pseudoscience with another I see

>>11021051
>people are born blank slates
nice fucking meme you have there

>>11021060
>implying I said that
Did you use your pseudo-scientific powers to come to that conclusion?

>>11021039
Yes to everything, anon.

But the point is not to "cure him of his jealousy", that's why I always prefer to say neutral stuff like "dealing with it", because it ammounts to each situation and each individual, it's not up to the analyst to do anything regarding that, except to make the patient listen to himself and not ignore what it is troubling him. And just as there is a bunch of ways to deal with it, there is a bunch of ways to ignore it. For instance, to disregard one's jealousy as one's "fault" and "probably just me making things up", or perhaps just assume it must be true because you are feeling it and not really take it as an indicator of your the position you are taking in the relationship. Analysis allows the patient a more sophisticate way to face this, it's like untangling a knot in which you talk about your part in it, the other's part in it, possible actions that could ease the issue, or if the issue is really an issue to begin with. All of that is open to happen.

>>11021067
>thinks that there's an inherent methodological problem in evopsych in 2018
Worse than blankslatists tbqh. I bet you unironically use the phrase "biological essentialism"

>>11021082
Feel free to post some evidence for your statements. Hard mode: no computer models

>>11021077
Why use the term "pathology" to describe the emotion itself? In the process you laid out the emotion is perfectly legitimate and healthy, the operative question is how that emotion is processed.

>>11021103
What statement?

>>11021103
People have an innate fear of snakes. They've never seen a snake before, but they're consistently afraid of it. This can be observed in countless other animals too, if you put a tuft of cat fur in a cage with mice who had never known anything related to cats at all, they become terrified.

>>11021123
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agi4geKb8v8

cats who have never seen snakes before being terrified of things that are simply shaped like snakes

>>11021123
That's some nice conjecture you got there. Got any real evidence?

>>11021112
The pathology is the suffering with it. It is not determined by no book except that someone is complaining about it to the analyst. His jealousy is pathological because he is complaining that he is jealous.

A good part of the job of the analyst is to make the patient see these emotions as legitimate, as you put it. That doesn't mean they are healthy though, that may or may not be the case, but it is legitimate nevertheless and that's the starting point for you to do whatever you feel you must do.

>>11021141
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primitive_reflexes
>inb4 wikipedia doesn't count

>>11021123
To make it thread related, that's a good example in favour of OP's quote.

Our fear of a snake is a legitimate experience, even if the snake is not poisonous or dangerous.

>>11021141
>demonstrably true
>countless experiments confirming as such
>not real evidence
I'd say nice bait, but it isn't.

>>11020947
did Lacan literally cure a single person?

>>11020967
>and Peterson telling me French people are bad
there's literally nothing wrong with hating the french

>>11021205
Well, a huge amount of his patients committed suicide. Technically they weren't mentally ill after that.

>>11021152
Just because they share traits doesn't mean the proposed causal effects aren't just speculation. They're cute stories, but that's all they are.

>>11021223
i guess that counts if we follow Socrates, i'll admit that one

>>11021205
Consider all that I've said and you'll know it's not that simple. How do you cure that guy's jealousy? Or should you? etc

Psychoanalysis plays a very different game, so that's why you'll never see analysts talking about it in that way. It does relieve symptoms and it does bring things into a different perspective, it gives tools for you to be more in the situations and consider yourself and your options.

A good documentary about it is called Rendez-vous Chez Lacan (an encounter with Lacan). You can find it with spanish and portugues subtitles, but I never found one in english. They interview Lacan analysands and they talk about how it was for them.

>>11021003
>I only take the stuff that is falsifiable (meaning it is probably wrong) seriously

>>11021225
There's literally no other explanation.

>>11021251
sounds like a bourgeois pastime

>>11021312
It is, like posting here

I don't understand how he can say it's pathological when it's literally a completely normal reaction in a relationship.

In fact, I would go as far as to say that the person who is most liable to become jealous is actually the most rational person in the relationship, because he/her is the person that knows that relationships are extremely unstable and both men and women can change their opinion about them at the drop of a hat if they meet someone they deem a better partner either in status, social affability or sexual attractiveness.

>>11021262
Just because a bigbraned individual such as yourself cannot conceive of another explanation doesn't make your remaining one true.
See Purkis & Lipp, 2007 for your snake argument: you cannot derive fear mechanisms from attention.
And even if this was true, it provides no further basis to support any of your other statements about human behavior. You'll have to provide proof for each of these cases individually.

>>11021205
>curing people

Spooky

>>11021372
>See Purkis & Lipp, 2007 for your snake argument: you cannot derive fear mechanisms from attention.
No-one ever said that's how the fear was measured. You're wrong, now fuck off.

>>11021225
>>11021141
>*flips lightswitch with absolute certainty it will work*
>Yes, it's a very nice functioning light you have there, but do you have any real evidence electricity works that way?

>>11021400
That's how evopsychs measure the response to snakes with infants to show the behavior isn't taught. Do you even know your own field?

>>11021411
lol
Is this what you people call science? From this, a genius like yourself would derive that light switches have genetically evolved over time to develop behaviors that turn on lamps.

>>11017150
it means this dude liked freud and his mentally ill rantings to the point of saying you should take it in the ass like a champ and like it

>>11021450
>That's how evopsychs measure the response to snakes with infants to show the behavior isn't taught. Do you even know your own field?
It isn't just observed in infants, it's observed in all people, which allows for far more sophisticated means of measuring fear. And in the case of rats/cats they've measured the fear response directly with cerebral implants. There's overwhelming evidence confirming this sort of thing, it ranges across species too.

>>11021450
>lol
>Is this what you people call science?
the post is a parody of your own retard, it has nothing to do with science and everything to do with your moronic and hypocritical conception of evidence

>>11021450
>denying evolution

>>11017211

>>11021521
Nice strawmanning. This behavior really is typical for pseudoscientists. Perhaps it is an evolved trait.

>>11021516
You're not getting the irony that you're mocking yourself

>>11021512
Please show evidence for this behavior by showing genetic markers. This is just more pointless conjecture.

>>11021561
where do you think behavior comes from if it didn't evolve my man

>>11020497
That's a misunderstanding.

Sebag was in love with Lacan's daughter.

>>11021568
>>11021561
>>11021521
>>11021516
>>11021512
>>11021450
>>11021411
>>11021400
>>11021372
>>11021262
>evopsych

>>11021568
Depends on the type of behavior and the animal. I'm not opposed to genetic factors for certain traits, it's just that evolutionary psychology as it currently stands is pure shit.

>>11017150
Even if you've only read Zizek's account on this, you'll know why this is completely out of context.

>>11021568
not even evolutionary psychologists believe that all behavior is evolved you pseud

>>11021561
>point me to which molecule is the psyche

>>11021586
9>>11021594
so where else can behavior come from

>>11017211
FUCK

why is zizek so boring in the current year? he was a promising meme for so long, does he even care about politics anymore?

>>11021655
Have you seen his face lately anon?

>>11021655
he got burned by the rabid equality zombies. I forget why but he engaged in some sort of wrongthink and was branded a fascist so he's been blacklisted

>>11021210
There must be something pathological about not hating the french

>>11021667
yes, kind of sad, but he seemed to be sharp in his mind, at least sharp enough to repeat the same memes that he has been repeating for the last 10 years

>>11021668
but he always was attacked by the puritans, but he got away with it because he is friendly, has a shitty accent and comes from a shitty country, which means people have very low standards and tolerate anything you do. why this doesn't work anymore?

>>11021707
the hysteria has been ramping up for quite some time now. As more people begin to just not care about being called racist the Left have descended into comical levels of spiritual purity on the subject

>>11021512
>It isn't just observed in infants, it's observed in all people

No it isn't. Many adults are not infact afraid of snakes almost as if experience and culture shape our mind

I'm bumping this shit

>>11021707
>why this doesn't work anymore?

Because we need to stop Drumpf

>>11017150
I assume this is a coded reference to how antisemitism is pathological even if Jews are fucking you over

>>11023856
hurrr

>>11020032
>Lacanian philosopher explaining the relevant quote using novel examples
>"grandstanding is not an argument"
What did he mean by this?

It's all about trust. Once a seed of doubt is created, it's over.

If you think your girlfriend is cheating, and you get paranoid, and try to catch her doing something wrong, and discover that in this instance she was innocent, the doubts are only temporarily relieved.

You're going to keep trying to catch her, and might even end up being so overbearing that your paranoia is what will lead to the falling out.

It's best once that doubt is there to simply end the relationship.

>>11017211
Now that's a sentence

>>11023950
What if she was cheating?

>>11024096
FUCKING CALL THE POLICE

>>11024096
Suicide before anyone calls you a cuck

>>11017211

>>11017211
what did he mean by this?

>>11017211
Based

>>11017154
fpbp

>>11017211
Fuck

>>11017572
There is nothing crazy about thinking the US government commits false flags within the US. The US government will sacrifice any citizens at any time if the their end justifies the means.

>>11019889
If you were foolish enough to not reply, why would you brag about it?

>>11020497
Based.

>>11017150
It’s possible to not care, a la Butch Kassidy and the Sundance Kid

>”I’m stealing your girl.”
>*Burp* “Keep her.”

>>11021134
Humans aren't cats

>>11017211
you got me

>>11019889
Fug

>>11017150
ffs this thread still isn't dead?

>>11025572
how does that make you feel?

>>11025592
I feel nothing.

>>11020497
WTF I love Lacan now?

>>11017211

>>11020497
Zizek sleeps with his colleagues daughters too

Who gives a damn about endless theoretical diarrhoea?
Stay true to the Self, nigga.

>>11017211
Damn