/lit/ - Literature

>>23209326
They are not identical, but at least in the Indo-European languages the one is semantically tied to the other. If a woman, wishing to say "I am tall" in Latin, said "Altus sum" rather than "Alta sum", she would not merely have spoken strangely, but made a statement with the false factual implicature that she is male.

>>23213007
TRANSLATION CHALLENGE:
Start at 8
From the “Actus beati Francisci et sociorum eius” by Ugolino Brunforte
(1/2)

>>23213157
(2/2)

>>23213157
Throw some meat to the GreekBVLLs too, not just tois Latiniskois.

>>23213266
Then he should post something in Classical Chinese too.

>>23213283
οἱ Σινικίζοντες δοκοῦσι πάνυ καλοί ἐμοίγε, οὖν ὁμολογῶ

>>23213013
> in the Indo-European languages the one is semantically tied to the other. If
They're not. It's why you get stuff like madame le juge.

>>23213305
Grammar can override it, but by default it is semantically tied. That's why, in Spanish, in an isolated sentence with nothing else to agree with, a man will say "Estoy cansado" and a woman will say "Estoy cansada".

>>23213309
It's not a trait of Indo European languages. It's why Irish genders are so fucked, because feminine nouns are just non concrete. Conjugation is not declension.

>>23213326
So why will a man say "Estoy cansado" and a woman "Estoy cansada" in an isolated sentence with nothing else to agree with? I'm not saying that grammar can't override it, or that how closely tied it is to semantics varies by language, but it undeniably is to at least some extent.

>>23213266
Non istas linguas scio. An si velis, cur non facere per seipsum velles?

>>23213334
You do know nouns have genders, right? They do not change based on sex.

Why do Anglos ruin my beautiful mother tongue Greek?
>logo pronounced with g like γ
>logistics, theology, tautology, k.t.l pronounced lojistics, theolojy, tautolojy
I pronounce theology theoloγy and whole classmates laugh at me. Hoi polloi will be hoi polloi?

>>23213348
Some do, like in Spanish (just using it as an example because it's the gender-having language I'm most familiar with) "presidente" is usually masculine but can sometimes be feminine if it's referring to a woman.
>>23213353
Because late Latin palatalized /k/ and /g/ before front vowels.

>>23213353
who gives a fuck what you think? you're a turk rapebaby who says v instead of β

>>23213369
NTA but while reconstructed pronunciations have their place, beta has been a fricative for the majority of the time the Greek alphabet has been in use.

πάντες Ἑλληνίζοντες μεταφραζόντων:

Ἀλεκτορίσκων ἦν μάχη Ταναγραίων,
οἷς θυμὸν εἶναί φασιν οἷον ἀνθρώποις.
τούτων δ' ὁ λειφθείς, τραυμάτων γὰρ ἦν πλήρης,
ἔκυπτ' ἐς οἴκου γωνίην ὑπ' αἰσχύνης·
ὁ δ' ἄλλος εὐθὺς εἰς τὸ δῶμα πηδήσας
ἐπικροτῶν τε τοῖς πτεροῖς ἐκεκράγει.
καὶ τὸν μὲν αἰετός τις ἐκ στέγους ἄρας
ἀπῆλθ'· ὁ δ' ἀδεῶς ἀμφέβαινε θηλείαις,
ἀμείνονα σχὼν τἀπίχειρα τῆς ἥττης.
[Ἄνθρωπε, καὶ σὺ μή ποτ' ἴσθι καυχήμων,
ἄλλου σε πλεὶον τῆς τύχης ἐπαιρούσης·
πολλοὺς ἔσωσε καὶ τὸ μὴ καλῶς πράσσειν

>>23213353
>why do languages change?
It's the way of the world, ordained by the Gods.

>>23213357
It's not a trait of Indo European languages though. The most basic rules for those is that feminine is going to be abstract concepts, in general. The genders develop differently into different languages, but that's the unifying trait. In Latin, and hence latinate languages, genders are separated into three, largely stemming from the concrete/abstract divide. It also divides male and female more closely to sex, so most all male and female names will correspond to their sex in gender declension, but it also further separates out the indeclinable into a third gender. Part of the the abstract/concrete divide becomes intermingled with gender and sex perception within Roman society, with rivers, winds, and mountains becoming male in Latin, while cities, countries, and more utile parts of nature like plants, animals, or gems become female. The neuter takes most of the abstracted concepts. That's not the case across Indo-European languages, because plenty have just two, and the other contenders for naming rivers in Europe thought most of those female, so it's not like the Latin division of gendered objects is even reflective of the the whole, especially because most of the time when Rome tried to slap a male name on a river, people went on calling it the girl name to be understood by non Latin speakers.

>>23213404
>so most all male and female names will correspond to their sex in gender declension
Even those that aren't shaped like their gender will still take its agreement, e.g. if you're saying a woman named Rosario is tall you'll say "Rosario es alta", not "alto". Is it otherwise in Latin?

>>23213415
You can decline adjectives to match the object, but consider Rosario es un pato. Does that make her unable to lay eggs?

>>23213421
No, because grammatical gender is generally only tied to sex in regards to humans and some domesticated animals.

>>23213425
Except it's not as tied to gender even in other latin derived languages, which is why you've got madame le juge in french. It's also not a rule you can apply across the even broader category of Indo European gender divisions.

>>23213436
It's not absolutely tied to gender, I said grammar could override it. But if it's purely grammatical with no connection to actual gender, then why does a man say "Estoy cansado" and a woman "Estoy cansada" in an isolated sentence with nothing to agree with? Why do so many occupational nouns have male and female forms?

Quintillian:
>...verba feminini generis habent, quia ad feminas referuntur, vel quae ab antiquis feminina censebantur...
Sorry chuds.

>>23213445
It's not because of them being Indo European. Spanish develops jueza, where French does not and maintains the latin male gender of the, from which they both stem. English gives up entirely on genders before judge even becomes the common word for the position. The gender rule you're trying to insert into all European languages doesn't even exist in one subgroup of them based on the same more recent source, while Indo European languages are much broader than that again.

Why does the possessive pronoun have a genitive form

>>23213471
Latin male gender of iudex.*
Sorry autocorrect doesn't understand dead languages

>>23213466
Don't expect ppl who whine about "Anglos" to be able to read this lol

>>23213471
I said the extent to which it's semantically tied to sex varies by language! But I know of none in which it's completely disconnected. Again:
>if it's purely grammatical with no connection to actual gender, then why does a man say "Estoy cansado" and a woman "Estoy cansada" in an isolated sentence with nothing to agree with?
Why won't you answer this question? It applies to French too, "Je suis fatigué" vs "Je suis fatiguée" (or feel free to substitute an adjective that's pronounced distinctly).

>>23213483
>I know of none in which it's completely disconnected
I've literally just used an example of it and at this point you're being willfully ignorant, so good luck with that.

>>23213466
If I understand correctly, basically "words belong to the feminine gender because they refer to women or were thought of as feminine by the ancients"? Which isn't exactly accurate, but it's pretty close. (Why would it even occur to them to call them "masculine" and "feminine" if they had no semantic connection to sex?)

CC translation challenge - Mozi book 5, opening. Commentaries provided!

今有一人,入人園圃,畢云:「《說文》云『園所以樹果』,『種菜曰圃』。」竊其桃李,眾聞則非之,上為政者得則罰之。此何也?以虧人自利也。至攘人犬豕雞豚者,穀梁成五年,范甯注云「攘,盜也」。其不義又甚入人園圃竊桃李。是何故也?以虧人愈多,依下文,當有「苟虧人愈多」五字。其不仁茲甚,茲、滋古今字,詳《尚同上》篇。罪益厚。至入人欄廄,欄,即闌之借字。《說文·門部》云「闌,門遮也。」《廣雅釋室》云「欄,牢也」。畢云:「《說文》無欄字。《玉篇》云『木欄也』。」取人馬牛者,其不仁義又甚攘人犬豕雞豚。依上下文,此句疑不當有「仁」字。此何故也?以其虧人愈多。苟虧人愈多,其不仁茲甚,罪益厚。至殺不辜人也,扡其衣裘,畢云「『扡』,讀如『終朝三●』之『●』。陸德明易音義云『褫,鄭本作●,徒可反。』『扡』即『●』異文。」王云:「『也』,即『扡』字之誤而衍者。」詒讓案:《說文·手部》云「●,曳也」。《淮南子·人閒訓》云「秦牛缺徑於山中而遇盜,拖其衣被」,許注云「拖,奪也」,「拖」即「●」之俗。取戈劍者,其不義又甚入人欄廄取人馬牛。此何故也?以其虧人愈多。苟虧人愈多,其不仁茲甚矣,罪益厚。當此,天下之君子畢云:「舊脫此字,據後文增。」皆知而非之,謂之不義。今至大為攻國,畢云:「據後文云『大為不義攻國』。」則弗知非,畢云:「『知』,一本作『之』。舊脫『非』字,據後文增。」案:道藏本、季本並不脫。從而譽之,謂之義。此可謂知義與不義之別乎?「可」,舊本作「何」。畢云:「一本作『可』,是。」今據正。

>>23213488
You named one case in which grammar overrides it, and grammar can sometimes override it, but in the language as a whole it still has a semantic connection in many contexts.

>>23213491
Text without commentary

今有一人,入人園圃,竊其桃李,眾聞則非之,上為政者得則罰之。此何也?以虧人自利也。至攘人犬豕雞豚者,其不義又甚入人園圃竊桃李。是何故也?以虧人愈多,其不仁茲甚,罪益厚。至入人欄廄,取人馬牛者,其不仁義又甚攘人犬豕雞豚。此何故也?以其虧人愈多。苟虧人愈多,其不仁茲甚,罪益厚。至殺不辜人也,扡其衣裘,取戈劍者,其不義又甚入人欄廄取人馬牛。此何故也?以其虧人愈多。苟虧人愈多,其不仁茲甚矣,罪益厚。當此,天下之君皆知而非之,謂之不義。今至大為攻國,則弗知非,從而譽之,謂之義。此可謂知義與不義之別乎?

>>23213492
Yes that seems like the connective link you're looking for in all Indo European languages, and of adequate strength to confirm your expectations. You could use blond/e in English to the same end.

>>23213504
English doesn't have grammatical gender. (I suppose there's a devil's advocate argument that it still does.)

I'm using the English edition of Athenaze
I skim through the grammar section just so, if there is a detail that cannot be explained in the glossary, I will at least know why a certain case or form is found, then I painfully read through the text by looking words up
Finally I add all the vocabulary to my anki deck
I re-read all the texts multiple times
I'm trying to avoid translating, so I only do English to Greek translations

>>23213483
>verb noun agreement is an adjective
WTF? Fatigué(e) is a past participle, not an adjective.

>>23213510
>
Think about what you wrote for a second, anon

>>>23213558

>>23213404
>The most basic rules for those is that feminine is going to be abstract concepts, in general.
?????

>the indeclinable into a third gender
?????
You know neuter is marked, right? It's by all definitions of the word a declined form, throughout its entire paradigm, since neuter forms are never lemma forms.

What kind of shitpost is this? Genders in IE languages are based on nothing but stems and sound changes, and analogy. In Proto-Indo-European, there were two genders, animate and inanimate, which were the precursor to masculine and neuter. In late PIE, speakers saw a need to further mark the animate category, and that's the precursor to feminine. That's whence the modern IE genders come. A given noun has a certaain gender because of its morphology, and not because of any ascribed interpretation.

This whole post chain is peak ?????.

>>23213445
>But if it's purely grammatical with no connection to actual gender, then why does a man say
Semantic gender =/= grammatical gender.

>Why do so many occupational nouns have male and female forms?
Agentives naturally form this way, but aren't necessarily relevant. C.f. English 'hunter' v.s. 'huntress', yet none of them behave any differently grammatically, since English doesn't have a way to distinguish them. The important thing to pay attention to here is that various agentives, in gendered languages, have certain genders, but even completely detached from the perceived sex of the agent. This is why a female firefighter was still a "fireman" back in the day, before -man was gotten rid of for some reason, or a male nurse, well, a nurse (and not a nurser). All -er nouns in English are (originally masculine) agentives, but you don't see a biological connection between the male sex and a skyscraper, do you? (If you do, seek help.) Furthermore, in Scandinavian languages, the very same agentive (scraper) is typically feminine, such as 'skrapa'.

>>23213476
Why shouldn't it? How else is it supposed to agree with genitive?

>>23213651
>since neuter forms are never lemma forms.
??? There's no way any dictionary you're looking at doesn't have nihil as the lemma.
Anon isn't wrong about declension either, because it doesn't look like he's saying neuter words are automatically not declined.

>>23213376
There was once a fight between Tanagraian roosters, whom they say have a manly spirit.
The defeated one, full of bruises, sunk in shame by the house corner.
The other one leaped quickly towards the house, chattering with the wings and screeching.
An eagle snatched it coming down from the roof and took off, while the other, careless, strode by the hens, having a better reward for its defeat.
You too, man, don't be a boaster,
when luck chooses you before another.
To not succeed also saved many.

>>23213713
>??? There's no way any dictionary you're looking at doesn't have nihil as the lemma.
In IE languages, masculine functions as the lemma since it's the default, unmarked form.
...I realize in hindsight it wasn't obvious I meant paradigms where gender agreement takes place. Sorry about that.

>>23213516
that's good, I used the Italian one back then, I sometimes also skimmed at the grammar before reading an individual chapter, I also usually did the anki deck at the end after having read the chapter multiple times, adding also example sentences from the book for the entry in order to see it in context

>>23213742
There are definitely masc, fem, and neuter words which are the lemma. This is so bizarrely fucking wrong I don't know why you're saying it. Are you trying to learn a language from a specific book or something? Tbph this sounds like total ass pulling and means you haven't used a dictionary. If you're getting this from a book or app or whatever, you need to ditch it and unlearn everything they said to you bro

>>23213838
>There are definitely masc, fem, and neuter words which are the lemma.
Yeah, nouns. See >>23213742
Since the whole post chain was about >gender agreement<, I didn't think to clarify this further.

>>23213891
The lemma is the default form, but they do not default to masculine, not even for gender agreement. 3/10 if you're just spewing word salad for (you)s

>>23213912
>but they do not default to masculine, not even for gender agreement.
?????
what are you even about?

>>23213912
Trying to be charitable here, but he might be seeing words laid out masculine and then feminine in modern language dictionaries, e.g.
>sportif/sportive
>lento/lenta
But then I don't know why he was using Latin examples because you're unlikely to see
>pulcher/pluchra

>>23213369
Angloids of all people shouldn't make fun of others like that when the effects of getting NORMAN'D continue to this day.

>>23213942
I think it's ass pulling but you're probably right about how he came to it

>>23213942
no
I'm talking about gender agreement, such as in adjectives
an adjective's lemma is always going to be masc in an IE language because it's the unmarked form
it's the basic form from which all other forms are declined
how was this not obvious from context in a reply to a massive post chain discussin exactly adjectives and participles, and gender agreement?
jesus christ

>>23213952
>>23213956
ITT classics retards clanging rocks together to try and figure out what a lemma is

you guys will always be a laughing stock

>>23213956
>an adjective's lemma is always going to be masc
I think your problem here is not knowing Latin in /clg/

ὅσῳ someone doesn't know Greek or Latin, τοσούτῳ the number of posts they make here.

>>23213964
?????
this is still true for Latin
grandis is the lemma, all the case and number forms, and entire paradigms of fem and neuter, declined forms thereof

>>23213977
>picks grandis to prove a male lemma mutates to a female form
This is next level trolling when Magnus is right there

>>23213517
Which is a type of adjective.
>>23213533
What about it?

>everyone is... LE GAY!
why are they like this?

and they did not say it in latin, it seems

>>23213157
I'll just do the first page since I'm lazy:
>And this mode of speaking endured for a good two thousand years. And Brother Leo, greatly admiring all those things, said: "Father, I beseech you for God's sake that you tell me where perfect happiness lies?" To whom the saint responded, saying: "When we come to Saint Mary of the Angels washed with rain and frozen with chill, covered also in filth and afflicted with hunger, and at the door of the place we shall sound and the porter would come irate, saying: "Who are you?" And we would say: "We are two of your brothers." And he on the contrary would say: "Verily you two are ribald who go every which way through the world seizing the alms of the poor." And he would not open it for us, but would make us stand in the snow and in water, in the cold and in hunger, until night, then if we shall have endured and tolerated patiently so many injuries and rebukes without turbulence or murmuring; and if we shall have cogitated humbly and sweetly because that porter truly knows us and because God excites his tongue against us, O brother Leo, write because there is perfect happiness. And if we shall have persevered in knocking, and that porter comes out perturbed as he would against importunate people, and most harshly slaps us, saying: "Get you hence, vilest cowards, and go to the hospital! For who are you? As penitents you will not eat here!" And if we shall have patiently carried these things and shall have accepted these injuries with love and a full heart, O brother Leo, write it because therein lies perfect happiness. And if here and everywhere we come upon afflictions, hunger urging on, the cold afflicting, the night approaching, and we shall knock, clamor, and with tears cry out that the doors be opened unto us, and he himself then, stimulated, shall have said: "Those are men promenstruating and"

Anyone know what the source for the fables in the Aesop (Esope) Bude is? I can't read frog so I can't figure it out.

>next chapter is the first chapter I will be reading authentic text
>mfw the vocabulary list is twice as long as every other chapter and filled with verbs
Feels bad man

>>23216563
Quis Liber et quod Capitulum illius?

>>23216982
Old Icelandic an Introductory course and Chapter 11
Anyway I'm really fucking confused by this sentence, what is í doing here?

>>23216999
Specifically the í at the end of the sentence
Also I'm thinking right now that the í is working with loptit and the author just doesn't want to repeat the noun

>>23216087
Description says it is comprised of all the available fables so presumably all the available sources for Aesop. Babrius, Phaedrus etc.

I think the best mother tongue for classical languages is Hungarian. It has the same sounds as all the important classical languages, and smart hungarians always know English and German too. It isn't similar to anything but that is an advantage if you aren't an uneducated peasant

>>23217011
Is it like the German "an"?

>>23217517
>>23217011
Yes this was a total guess but it is used exactly like the German "an".

>From Old Norse í, from Proto-Germanic *in, from Proto-Indo-European *h1én.

Preposition
edit
í

in; to (direction) [+accusative]
Ég geng í kirkjuna. ― I walk to the church
in (location) [+dative]
Hann er í húsinu. ― He is in the house

>>23213007
Not sure if this is a good place but I figured I might get more answers here in the next two days before the book comes than anywhere else

>Poets in a Landscape by Highet

Just bought this book on a complete whim without looking into it much. From what I’ve made out it’s a mix of history, criticism, travelogue, and poetry tracing the Roman poets and their locations. The usual guys like Catullus, Juvenal, Horace, Virgil are included

Mistake or good whim purchase?

Whats a good source for writing Hebrew letter non-slow nor retardedly?

Manchu counts as a classical language, right?

>>23213007
I want to learn ancient greek so I can read works like Iliad and the Odyssey. I'm downloading everything in the mega link right now. Do you all have any further advice for a noob?

>>23218123
well be patient, read and re-read a lot, don't hasten, personally, I used JACT's book to get introduced into Homeric Greek after my Attic was decent enough; using an interlinear version like the one in the MEGA can make things smoother especially for vocabulary at the beginning since you are going to be hit with many less common words; don't ignore the meter and thus don't ignore phonetic vowel length, to me it's one of the biggest reasons for reading it in the original

>>23218329
Right. I will try to be patient. Is JACT "Joint Association of Classical Teachers"? I was also wondering how much do the different kind of greeks differ? I understand that modern greek is uncompareable but is the jump between different era's and areas harsh? I'll be sure to also re-read a lot as you mentioned. It's not something I mind as it's how I've often learned things. I'll be sure to look after the vowel length.. I can only imagine how good it feels to be able to see rhythmic play there.

>>23218381
>Is JACT "Joint Association of Classical Teachers"?
yes, pic related in particular for Homer, introduces you softly to the grammatical quirks of this literary dialect as well as much of the "unorthodox" vocabulary(compared to what you normally meet in Attic), I also liked the part about Herodotus(Ionic dialect)
my experience is mostly with Attic, Koine, Ionic and Homeric, for all these cases luckily you are dealing with a largely shared base, since Attic and Ionic are sister dialects, Koine derives largely from Attic, Homeric has a Ionic base, so the shock as far as grammar isn't that bad, you can adapt fairly easily if your Attic is solid

>>23218123
Pharr's Homeric Greek is excellent if you're most interested in Homer. By the end of the textbook you have read through the whole book 1 of Iliad.

Bros help me I bought another Loeb, it's becoming an addiction

>>23218670
post collection

>>23218670
post it on instagram and tiktok with #secrethistory #darkacademia like the faggot you are

>>23218676
I've got
2 Virgils, 1 Plautus, 3 Aristophanes, 1 Plato, 2 Ciceros, 1 Ovid, 1 Aeschylus, 1 Sophocles, 1 Aristotle,
I can't remember off the top of my head what the actual titles are

>>23217129
It doesn't have Babrius or Phaedrus (only Greek).

The new Aristophanes Loeb translations actually fuck. But the old ones suck.

what should my first easy-peasy Latin and Greek reads be?

I wanna get nice Oxford Classical Texts hardbacks to commemorate moving from textbook to real book

>>23218960
Xenophon and Caesar. Keep it traditional.

>>23218960
The bible

>>23218960
For Greek, Xenophon is traditional and shouldn't be too ridiculously hard. The Bible is easier but will not prepare you so well for Attic.

>>23218960
A Greek Boy at Home
Gospel of Luke
Apollodorus' Bibliotheca
Diodorus' Library
Anabasis
The Iliad

>>23218960
Xenophon Anabasis
Cyropadeia and Memorabilia are comfy too
Aesop's fables (Bude) / Babrius' fables (Loeb)
Apollodorus
Cebes' Pinax
Plato's Apology

>Read something in Greek and Latin and comprehend fully
>Can't recall it 20 minutes later
How do I fix this?

I'm curious what the usual pathway for Christians who wish to learn Ancient Greek in order to deepen their understanding of the New Testament and Septuagint is?
I am a hypothetical Christian who is quite religious and I have decided that I wish to learn Ancient Greek
Am I going to be buying a textbook which focuses on teaching the grammar and vocabulary specific to the Bible?
Or am I going to start with Attic Greek and then move to Koine?
I guess if the New Testament is relatively easy than say, Attic Greek texts, there could be an argument to just stick with that but I feel like if you wanted to have a very good fluent grasp of the language you'd need to read as much as possible
Do these guys become passionate about Homer? Or the playwrights?
Now I'm distinguishing the above hypothetical person with someone who is incidentally Christian but passionate about the Classics

>>23220107
Read something worth remembering
I'm only half joking

>>23220217
Koine, then Jude. After that you can build back to wherever, but Jude is the cleanest Koine, which is basically Attic for normies. It's kind of funny if you have any previous classics training because straight out the gate you're seeing Jude quote Diogenes and Jesus saying some Platonic shit

>>23218696
Kek this. The only physical objects one should ever bother collecting are women.

>>23220107
Reread it, obviously.

>>23220107
I've read de bello gallico cover to cover multiple times and read and reread smaller sections. But those gallic names just go in one ear and out the other. Every time. I'm so focused on parsing the grammar and just understanding line by line that I totally lose track of any larger narrative.

>>23220425
Reading it on Perseus makes it a lot better. It cross-references William Smith's Dictionary of Greek and Roman biography and mythology, so whenever you forget a name, you can read a short summary of whom it refers to.
It's not that important anyway. The Gallic Wars are a conflict so far removed from us, the value of De Bello Gallico lies not in the details but in its clear Latin.

>>23220226
Which texts is this hypothetical person reading in order to learn Koine? Or do you mean just a Koine textbook and then Jude for their first text?
You say they 'can' build back, but is this hypothetical person going to do so?

>>23220107
spend some time creating vivid imagery to represent the key pieces of information and concepts in the text. make sure the images relate logically to the words and that they are as detailed and as sensory-rich as possible. the more unique and vivid the image, the more likely you are to remember it.
if the text is long you can place these images into a stations of a memory palace and periodically 'walk through' those stations in your imagination, recalling the text as you go.

>>23220521
Koine is stripped down Attic. You can make Attic into insane formations (not common in the bible) because you can compound concepts and make ridiculously long words, which makes a lot of the Attic plays harder to read. Koine is if you don't do that nonsense and want a language people can read without being memory scholars. Plutarch and Jude are some of the most basic babby's first Greek you could give people, because koine Greek is like Attic for second language speakers.
Xenophon's Anabasis is usually where people who are doing classical Attic start, because it has less literary flourishes and technical terms, but Jude or Plutarch are much easier again.
You can find textbooks for biblical or koine Greek that work through basic texts like that. The biblical ones are going to suit your purpose best, but they also may have an unusual interpretation particular to their sect.
Most people aren't going to build their Attic to the point they're able to read a play tbph. Part of that is Homeric Greek is different again to Attic, so a lot of students who might get through Homer with Pharr might then get through Xenophon, and maybe some koine Greek, but they're not getting through Lucian to debate if he's better at Attic or Ionic.

>>23220217
The best AG textbooks (Athenaze & Reading Greek) teach Attic. After getting a good grasp of Classical Greek the transition to Koine will be very smooth.

>>23220947
>compound concepts and make ridiculously long words
is Attic Greek German

I've finished book 1 and halfway through book 2 of de bello Gallico but I don't really think I'm getting it. I still have to reread it about three times before I get it properly and I think I'm only getting it because of context and not because I understand the grammar as I'm reading

CC bros where are you all...
(This post does not refer to the troon)

>>23220107
I have learned two languages to full fluency, but somehow my memory is shit in them.
When I remember something in English, I remember the exact wording the person used. When I remember something in my two other languages, I remember the meaning of what was said but not the exact wording.
How do I fix this shit?

>>23221443
Shadow

>>23221249
Check out Henle Latin Second Year (either buy or libgen). It will teach you Cesar's idiom (pedem referre = se recipere = to retreat) and provide a lot of context to what is going on. The context is given in English but it brings the Latin to life. It's like House of Cards but in Gaul.

I have decided I will not be learning Greek and Latin. Instead I’ll use that time to learn French, German, Russian, Japanese and Chinese, the main languages of modern science, literature and philosophy.

>>23221721
>Not going for all of them

>>23221721
how do I unsubscribe from your blog?

>>23220217
Homer = Chaucer
Attic = Shakespeare
Septuagint = esl
Koine generally = modern pleb English

ebonics = ??

>>23220947
Plutarch is hard, he has an enormous vocabulary

>>23222012
he thinks Plutarch's register is koine too lmao

>>23222007
M*dern Greek = ebonics, duh

I learned Greek in undergrad, got A's in it and all that, but then forgot it completely and it's been like 5 years. How fast do you gents think I could go through an entire Greek textbook and get up to a good level in Greek if I just did nothing but this for days on end, like I'm in a Siberian dacha with nothing else to do.

>>23220509
>Reading it on Perseus makes it a lot better.
That's where I do almost all my Latin reading.

>the value of De Bello Gallico lies not in the details but in its clear Latin.
What would you recommend as a text where I can more easily engage with the content rather than just the language?

>>23222012
>>23222049
...have you guys not read Lives?

If:
β,δ,γ = b,d,g
and
π,τ,κ = p,t,k
and
φ,θ,χ = pʰ, tʰ, kʰ
then clearly
ψ,ζ,ξ = ps, ts, ks

ζ=ts completes the scheme, simple as.

>>23222380
I have, how does he not have a massive vocabulary? Just go on Perseus and compare him to the other historians. Thucydides, Herodotus and Xenophon all have smaller vocabularies and repeat words more often.

>>23222364
Probably pretty fast. I bet you remember more than you think you do, if you were studying right at least.

>>23222525
You're reading a translation, because Herodotus is going to be the hardest to read out of all of those for someone learning Attic or Koine.

>>23222393
this strikes me as folk etymology - just because something would make sense does not mean it is correct
languages are often illogical
also, there is no evidence to show that ζ was voiceless

>>23221420
Currently depressed and avoiding 4chan much since it does little good
I'll be back w a project I'm working on tho

Any suggestions for where I can purchase an authentic Toga to wear whilst I study Latin?

>>23222548
Not really once you get used to the dialect

>>23221721
Japanese is the only truly useful one there because anime/manga > all of those.

>>23222548
spoken like someone who hasn't read Herodotus

>>23223283
>>23223865
I don't believe you have a basic exposure to any Greek, and I doubt anyone with any exposure would believe you either. Including modern Greek.

>>23223920
kek ok

>>23213007
اطلب العلم ولا تكسل| فما ابعد الخير على اهل الكسل
واهجر النوم و حصله فمن | يعرف المطلوب يحقر ما بذل
لا تقل قد ذهبت أربابه | كل من سار على الدرب وصل
في ازدياد العلم ارغام العدى | وجمال العلم اصلاح العمل

Quest for knowledge and don't be lazy
Oh! How far away is goodness from the slothful?

Abandon sleep and demand it, whosever
knows the goal despises what he left

Don't say the masters have gone;
all who tread upon the path arrive

Increasing knowledge enrages the enemies
and the most beautiful knowledge is fixing your deeds

>>23222548
>>23223920
this guy lmao

I'm finding it frustrating with Old Norse how it doesn't seem that the idiom is that accessible to learn
I open up a dictionary entry for a certain word and I'm met with hundreds of examples of how it's used and the textbook doesn't seem to bother to explicitly tell me, I'm just supposed to assume that the idiom translates

>>23224687
Actually maybe this is just a dead languages thing
With French I had wiktionary and wiktionnaire but with Old Norse I have to read an OCR scanned dictionary from 1874

>>23224687
>hundreds of examples of how it's used
a good thing
>the textbook doesn't seem to bother to explicitly tell me
also a good thing

Bilge Anon : ben özüm : Roma eliŋe : qïlïntïm : Halas budun : Romaqa : ükü erür erti

I might as well shill my game here since you seem the intended audience.

I'm making an RPG adaption of Homer's Odyssey that puts accuracy to the original text above all else. There's a Steam link in the video description if you're interested in wishlisting
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mO26IrafSIw

>>23213007
I'm learning latin on duolingo and I don't understand why some times "on the floor" gets translated by "in pavimentum" and sometimes "in pavimento"

>>23223920
Herodotus is one of the easiest major authors lol

>>23225041
depends if it feels like being in the nominative, accusative, or ablative, or dative. it is pancasual and very fluid. fluidity.

>>23225041
I don't use duolingo but from what I've seen they stick to small sentences of less than 5 words right?
If so, you probably just don't have enough context to know why the sentence is using the accusative, ablative, dative, etc.

surprisingly few translations of Classical Chinese historiological texts exist (except Sima Qian's 史記). I refer primarily to the 24 histories, which is a collection of 24 “official" histories of Chinese dynasties, each written by the dynasty after the one they describe. Of these 24, only Sima Qian's work has been translated, outside of select paragraphs and chapters from the others.
apparently this is because European interest in these periods postdates the idea of China-centrism in Sinology - i.e. that you should read the books in the original language
as this trend looks unlikely to change, and these books remain of little interest to the general English-speaking world, it seems probable they will never be translated

>>23225041
movement vs static, accusative for movement, ablative for static, still works this way in much of IE languages that retained those cases

>on duolingo
"learning" Latin is an euphemism

>>23225047
If you read Homer first, sure. If you're learning only Koiné and get an unglossed Herodotus passage, lol lmao, your teacher wants to flunk you

>>23224989
cool

>>23225041
>on duolingo
it's on duolingum, learn english first

is there's a JACT's book or something like JACT's introductory books about Pindar or more broadly his genre and Doric choral works in general? I've almost finished reading my Homer+Hesiod and I wouldn't mind trying something different but jumping straight into it alone seems scary

>>23225119
idk why you think that I'm learning Koine

>>23225285
are you able to read someone like Tennyson with some facility? if not, i dont think it is a foreign language problem

>>23223920
lol

>>23224989
Make the dialogue and menus in Homeric Greek and I'll buy your game. You can come here for help.

>>23225301
>Tennyson
idk who this is, I'm talking about reading it in the original, some introductory work like JACT's that gently guides you into the dialect's quirks and ideally also the meter would be nice to ease my way in, I enjoyed the one about Homer

>>23217463
>It has the same sounds as all the important classical languages,
Which are you defining as the important classical languages?

>>23221420
Don't worry, we're here, just suffering from akrasia.

>>23222583
I agree it probably wasn't, but out of curiosity, where does the use of Latin <z> (which is a borrowing from Greek zeta) for /ts/ in medieval Europe come from? Does it just come from the Greek dialects in which it was /dz/ plus fudging the voicing?

>>23225055
>except Sima Qian's 史記
Isn't there not even a full English translation of that? I thought I read that the only European language with a full translation of it was Russian.

>>23223222
Buy a white curtain and cut it correct size
simple

>>23223222
You need a semi circle of white wool measuring 6 yards by 2 yards

>>23225295
?? I was following the sub thread's subject. Idk why you think anon knows who you are, anon.

How many of you who learn Classical Greek learn the pitch accent?
I am curious since so many textbooks just tell you to use stress timed

>>23225930
very easy to do if you learned Japanese from being a weeb

t. matt vs japan disciple from 2015

>>23225930
κάρτ' ἔγωγε

νῦν ἂρχομαι τὸν Κύκλωπα τοῦ Εὐριπίδου, τὴν πρῶτην τραγῳδίαν ἣν ἀναγνώσομαι
τί ἀναγιγώσκουσι οἱ /clg/οι;

>>23225119
Even then Herodotus is easier than Thucydides. Adjusting to his dialect really doesn't take that much.

>>23226864
>quid oportet
>nos facere a volgo longe longeque remotos?
Chaire fra, sermones Horatii lego.

>>23227066
I don't know why people always say Thucydides is less fun, because he makes up for the lack of fables with shit that's just fun to say. But you're probably going to come across more common words in Thucydides than Herodotus, even if you account for dialect, because of that stylistic difference. Herodotus is writing shit where even he's like I don't know what the fuck that's called

>>23226864
εὖγε φίλε, ἐμαυτῷ μέλει νῦν Ῥωμαιστὶ μὲν τοῦ Σαλλουστίου ἡ ἱστορία τοῦ Ἰουγουρθικοῦ πολέμου, Ἑλληνιστὶ δὲ τὸ ἑπτακαιδέκατον βιβλίον τῆς Ὀδυσσείας

>>23227105
ἁἁἁ οὐκ ἐβουλόμην τόνδε τὸν βάτραχον ἀγγεῖλαι

I fucking hate studying my TL but whenever I give it up I instantly feel sad, start looking at learning other languages and then in my analysis of them, the TL I just quit inevitably pokes its head back and tells me it was meant to be

>>23225285
>>23225310
Perseus has pretty extensive notes.

bump for jinpingmei

>>23228644
Great novel but not classical.

This is the type of person who whines about the "grammar translation method"

>>23229004
how come? he literally says he doesn't read ancient greek.

>>23229004
the greek is wrong anyways, I think it meant to say γνῶθι, ἀλλὰ φοβοῦ, σαυτόν

>>23229004
I'm on like chapter 2 of athenaze, but I'm guessing this means
>Know, otherwise fear, thyself

>>23229047
I mean the guy he's talking about
>>23229074
I know, that's the point

Been thinking about getting into bookbinding and making my own personal classical literature library over time, like The Easton Press but better. Physical media, archival quality paper in a tasteful format, leather bound guilt edges...something that might be saved and passed on by our 80 IQ normie descendants for the long haul. (Bonus: to sell an extra bespoke copy or two to fellow nutters at cost, since the economics quite certainly do not pencil-out).

I've schizo posted about this before; something like Asimov's "Foundation" for but classical lit, to survive the next time 98% of the corpus is lost. Also, just to have physical hard copies that are a little nicer than what you find in academia (Teubner, Oxford Classical Texts, Loeb's, etc). Trying to find tasteful "ego library" editions of classical lit is difficult, most likely for very good reasons.

A fool's errand to be sure. Just wondering if anyone else on /clg/ has fantasized about this...

>>23229971
I have fantasized about this a lot. Honestly older OCTs are pretty good in my experience but a lot of texts just aren't published, especially anything even slightly obscure.

>>23229971
Since I gather the original manuscripts are copyright free, you could just take the text from an existing loeb and print it yourself. Of course this is not a cheap hobby, but it's definitely something that could probably be done solo if you just put together all the right tools for printing and book binding. If anything, it's cheaper than it's ever been in history.

One day I may myself print a book, just one, it would cost alot, but for a hobby maybe it's worth it.

>>23229993
There's Perseus from which you can just take the text for most things, as well as some other databases, so you don't even need to pay for the text.

>>23220389
Women are the Chinese gender

>>23224695
Check Icelandic

>>23229989
Last year I decided to hunt down the entire OCT volume by volume. I was buying older editions on Ebay and AbeBooks and started with everything they had by Cicero, before I learned that their yellowing pages meant these books will turn to dust well within 100 years. Pic related.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slow_fire

>>23229993
>One day I may myself print a book, just one, it would cost a lot, but for a hobby maybe it's worth it.

Bookbinding looks to be a pretty cheap hobby if you don't get crazy with tooled leather binding and whatnot. r/bookbinding on reddit has some good info, u/TrekkieTechie has already done a bit of legwork regarding home printers and ink (pigment based!) if you're worried about archival quality. I'm sure once you find an efficient formula, (basic tools + binding + paper type + printing signatures), the economies of scale become favorable quickly.

No grifter is ever going to make money off of this, it would have to be a labor of love. But I'm not sure how else to build a library to my specifications. It's like the 2024 equivalent of medieval monasteries copying manuscripts.

>>23227815
mmh I guess I'll work with some edition like that

>>23229971
I'm interested in this as well. Found a local bookbinding course and seminar and might sign up for it. Not for archival purposes for me but just to be able to do so as well as improve book repair
>>23230495
> these books will turn to dust well within 100 years
absolutely not. maybe several hundred years but even then I doubt it.
I have a few dozen OCTs. The oldest, Oxford printed though technically not OCT, is from the 1908, comedies of Terence. It is in excellent condition though clearly read. I have several others from pre-WW2 that are just fine.
Yellowing pages and slow fire are not optimal but if you don't abuse them they will not 'turn to dust' in 100 years. Just be careful and don't read like an animal and they will last for centuries.

duo canēs senpaiē incitātī, cadāvera inter sē certantēs, rīdent. "Quā dā causā pugnāmus?" rogat ūnus. Alter, "nātūra et Cupīdo nōs ad certātiōnem impellunt."

duo canēs senpaiē incitātī, cadāvera inter sē certantēs, rīdent. "Quā dē causā pugnāmus?" rogat ūnus. Alter, "nātūra et Cupīdo vel Ἔρως nōs ad certātiōnem impellunt."

duo canēs avititāte incitātī, cadāvera inter sē certantēs, rīdent. "Quā dē causā pugnāmus?" rogat ūnus. Alter, "nātūra et Cupīdo vel Ἔρως nōs ad certātiōnem impellunt."

Will I be able to read Saxo after RA?

bump

How do I upgrade from Xenophon Greek to Euripides Greek? I can read most of the "intermediate" Greek stuff with ease but there's such a major gap between that and the plays. There's just soo much vocab for the plays that I spend more time in the lexicon than actually reading them.

>>23232721
No shortcut for vocab, sorry

>>23232760
I know but how do I learn all that vocab.

>>23232779
Time, patience, extensive reading, flashcards, Modern Greek

>Modern Greek

>>23232817
>Modern Greek
I'm actually starting to consider this. I could watch anime or some shit and at least I might pick up a word or two Euripides uses

>>23232817
>want to improve vocabulary so I can do extensive reading
>need to do extensive reading to improve vocabulary

Life is pain

>>23233519
On the other hand, you might also get used to some words as meaning different things than they do in ancient.

>>23232984
Μαλάκας.

What should I read after DBG and RA ? If you guys have any suggestion.

>>23233908
DBG done? then u should really just move into what subject interests you

I want to read Homer, Hesiod, the old lyrical poets, Pindar, Theognis, Heraclitus and Parmenides.

Would you learn Attic or Epic first?

>>23234053
epic/homeric. even the attic tragedians imitated it, being the gold standard and all. for regular prose like orations and philosophy, attic

>>23234053
don't worry about the dialects. the differences aren't that big of an obstacle

>>23234053
Start with Homeric Greek by Pharr

stercus fundit ex mentula mea

勤有功,戲無益。戒之哉,宜勉力。
Wasted the past few months (metaphorically) playing all day with my finger up my ass. I'll try to get back to studying again.

>>23234467
I can relate. It's hard when life catches up to you and you find yourself in a spiral of idleness. I'm not fully out of it but at least I started making progress on my Greek again.
Dimidium facti, qui coepit, habet.

Finished Devavanipravesika; moved onto Lanman's Sanskrit Reader. How does one go about acquiring vocabulary in this language? Is there an equivalent of Caesar or Xenophon?

>>23234053
As the poster above said, the dialects are hardly the hardest part of Greek. Use whatever method is comfortable for you and move on to your preferred authors fast.

>>23234467
On the one hand, 戲無益. On the other hand, all work and no play makes Jack a dull boy. The question is finding the right balance.

Goddamn there are so many sound changes you need to learn
If the stem syllable is long the thematic vowel is i, if the stem syllable is short the thematic vowel is j
In short syllable stems the thematic vowel only appears in the present tense so i-umlaut will occur differently between the present and past tense stems
Oh but actually if the stem ends with a g or k you need to learn all of these other rules and for short syllable stems it's only the g that matters
segi sagða
segir sagðir
segir sagði
segjum sǫgðum
segið sǫgðuð
segja sǫgðu
Now this information is nice because it lets you avoid frustration but how useful is it actually? I don't know if I can intuitively download all of this into my brain when it takes me a few seconds to just apply the rules in an optimal environment

>>23229993
>Since I gather the original manuscripts are copyright free, you could just take the text from an existing loeb and print it yourself.
First of all, the Loeb is probably not based on a single manuscript. The translator/editor used multiple sources and, using their creativity, knowledge, and critical thinking, created a new product that they consider aesthetically superior or oldest possible reading. Plus, they were using their knowledge and skill to read sloppy / degraded letters or even fill in large gaps. Second, you are getting the text from Loeb, and the Loeb is in copyright (I'm assuming that's the case for the hypothetical Loeb we are talking about). You can't just take the text from the Loeb, even if it came from a single manuscript. A court will likely rule that the printed text was a product of skill and knowledge, therefore under copyright. I don't like copyright. I am known to those who know me as the guy who breaks copyright, really. But if Loeb were to bring you to court, you'd lose. That's all I'm saying.

>>23233958
Would I be ready enough to tackle Cicero and Seneca? or Do I need to ready easier authors? and if that is the case, what would you recommend ?

I assume a loeb edition of Caesar would be useful but what about for Virgil?

>>23235368
Why not try them and see? Don't give up at the first difficulty, spend a couple weeks reading one of their works and see how it goes

>>23229971
>>23229993
>>23235363
Here's all the Loebs that are public domain
https://ryanfb.xyz/loebolus/

>*λέοντ-ς => λέων, nu survives, sigma falls off, compensatory lengthening
>*γίγαντ-ς => γίγᾱς, sigma survives, nu falls off, compensatory lengthening
μὰ τὸν Δία τί τοῦτο;

>>23235368
idk about Seneca, from the little Cicero I have read, I don't find him as difficult as often claimed, I find the terser style of Tacitus/Sallust more challenging whereas some people are more scared by the prolix and long winded sentences of Cicero
but as long as you have an interest in the topic you will be motivated to go through it

I don't think a company cares about anyone breaking copyright so long as it's not mass-produced for sale.

>>23234104
ολέκομεν ψυχας πολλας και κακας εν πάτρη φιλη.

>>23235912
Can you find any instances of
>αντ-ς => αν
>οντ-ς => ως
If not, there is your answer.

>>23237188
that's not what I had in mind, I'm more interested on why this different regular realization e.g why we didn't get λέως, is there something special about the ο in οντ that leads to the sigma falling out instead of the nu?
*γιγαντ-ς => γίγᾱς
aorist passive participle *εντ-ς => είς
present participle of e.g ὄλλυμι, *ὀλλυντ-ς => ὀλλύς
but *γέροντ-ς => *γέρων
the only exception I can think of is ὀδούς except it has also the ionic equivalent ὀδών

I am really impressed at how much cool stuff is in the mega. Although I must say some of those pdfs are monstrously huge, the lexicons in particular

>>23237502
I'm not really complaining btw, some of them are well over 1000 pages of text. It's crazy how much you guys put together

>ex quibus unam in Morinos ducendam Gaio Fabio legato dedit, alteram in Nervios Quinto Ciceroni
Wow, I had no idea Cicero attended Caesar at one point during the Gallic Wars.

>>23237618
>Quinto Ciceroni
that is his brother

Is the FR companion any good?

>>23237643
Oops, you're right.

>>23213471
>talks exclusively about spanish
>this is why the entirety of indo-european is such-and-such

>>23213496
You need to put the commentary in brackets or something, it's hard to see what's what.

今一人有り、人園圃に入り、其の桃李を竊む、衆聞きて則ち之を非とす、上の政を為す者は得て則ち之を罰す。此れ何ぞや。人を虧(そこな)ひて自らの利とすを以てなり。人が犬豕鷄豚を攘む者に至ては、其の不義は又人園圃に入り桃李を竊むより甚し。是は何故なるや。人を虧ふは愈多しを以て、其の不仁は茲(ますます)甚しく、罪は益厚し。人欄廐に入り人の馬牛を取る者に至ては、其の不仁義は又人が犬豕鷄豚より甚し。此れは何故なるや。其の人を虧ふは愈多しを以てなり。苟も人を虧ふが多からば、其の不仁は茲甚しく、罪は益厚し。辜なき人を殺し、其の衣裘を扡(ぬす)み、戈劍を取る者に至ては、其の不義又人欄廐に入り人の馬牛を取るより甚し。此れは何故なるや。其の人を虧ふは愈多しを以てなり。苟も人を虧ふが愈多からば、其の不仁は茲甚しく、罪は益厚し。此れに當て、天下の君子は皆知りて之を非とし、之を不義と謂ふ。今大いに國を攻むることを爲すに至ては、則ち非を知らず、從て之を譽め、之を義と謂ふ。此れは義と不義との別を知ると謂ふべきか。

Now there was a man, the man goes in a garden and steals the fruit of the garden. The people hear this and state that this is bad. The governors of above hears this and thus punishes this. Why is this? This is because one has exploited a man and made it ones profit. Regarding one, who steals livestock, that unjust is again greater than that of to go in a garden and to steal the fruit. Why is this? As the exploitation of a man is further greater, that unjust is further greater and the sin is further greater. Regarding one, who goes in a stable and takes a beast, that unjust is again greater that that of to steal livestock. Why is this? This is because that exploilation of a man is further greater. If there is greater exploitation of a man, that unjust is further greater and the sin is further greater. Regarding one who kills a sinless man and steals his clothes and takes his weapons, that unjust is again greater than that of to go in a stable and take a beast. Why is this? This is because that exploitation of a man is further greater. If there is greater exploitation of a man, that unjust is further greater and the sin is further greater. Regarding this, the scholars of the lands all know and state that this is bad and say that this is unjust. Now regarding attacking a land, thus knowing not of bad, furthermore to praise this and to say that this is just. Can we say that this is knowing of the difference between just and unjust?

tl;dr: doing bad things is bad and doing worse things is worse. politicians are poopoo-heads that do mega bad things

I don't read chinese philosophy in english so I don't know the accepted terms

>>23224989
i will translate your game into shitty ancient greek for shitty pay

>>23237660
yeah, very straightforward explanations on the grammar and a good model to use when composing your own sentences to solidify the concept/rule at hand.

>>>23240000

Translation for "what should I do then?" ?
Quickly cobbled together "quid debeo tunc agere" but please tell me if this is deficient.

>>23240480
I mean depends on what exactly you mean by then. I would be tempted to say something like: ergo quid agendum (est). But I'm assuming that you mean then to be more logical than temporal.

>>23240480
quid agam? is idiomatic, modify with proper adverb depending on the specific sense of the question as the other anon pointed out

Why does καθίζω take a syllabic augment when it's prefixed with κατα-?

>>23241228
Probably used together so often it became a new word and was treated as such

>>23238276
>You need to put the commentary in brackets or something, it's hard to see what's what.
next time I will add in line breaks to make it clearer yeah

your translation is generally good but that of
今至大為攻國,則弗知非,從而譽之,謂之義
is a bit odd
則弗知非 = 則(天下之君子)不知非之 = to not know to condemn it or not
非 here is a verb, meaning to condemn/blame (threw me off as well)

I would translate the sentence as:
Now, when it comes to attacking a state, the scholars do not know whether to condemn it, and instead they praise it and say it is just.

>be old norse learner
>first authentic texts are about burning people in their homes, wrestling bears on mountains and killing a man and his boy, delivering such a hard blow with your sword that it sticks into the man's brain
There's also stuff about uh, buying property, talking about getting married and sailing along the coast but this is good

>>23242016
Can't 非 also mean "wrong" though?

>>23242086
Yes, if it's a noun
Here it's a verb because 弗 is a fusion of 不之 and this shows 非 has an object and thus is a verb

>>23242124
Ah, makes sense.

>>23242132
Yeah, it's important to know that in CC most nouns can be used as verbs - you need to look at contextual clues to decide this i.e. 而 always links verbs
If there's no readily apparent verb it's usually like "to consider x"
An example would be like 子远千里而来
You far 1000 li and come
You considered 1000 li to be far and yet you came

>>23242086
>>23242155
So 非 here could also be interpreted as "to consider wrong" or condemn (but I think condemn makes more sense as it's opposed with 誉 which means to praise)

>>23242159
So it's the same word which could also be written as 誹? (Which is probably just a semantic variant of 非 anyway)

Is there a significant difference between reading Classical Chinese prose vs poetry?
Is it possible to fluently read CC prose?

>>23242164
誹 I think has a more limited meaning of "slander" (to criticise improperly)
https://ctext.org/dictionary.pl?if=en&char=%E8%AA%B9

>>23242175
Sure, but you don't think it might be etymologically the same word? There's a lot of cases where a variant character takes on what's originally a more specific substance of the original word, like 功 for 工

>>23242185
*more specific sub-sense

>>23242185
Maybe, but I'm apprehensive in general about doing this (adding a non-written radical) as it lets you read the text in pretty much any way you want
So yeah maybe, but it's simpler to read it as just the verb use of 非. I would defer to commentaries in most situations like this, and unless they say it should have a radical, just read it as the non radical version
Also these are quite rare other than 见 -> 现

>>23242164
You definitely can't read CC as "fluently" as a modern language, you have to think over and consider properly all possible meanings for sentences, and use commentary etc. Chinese people also have to take their time reading CC

as for your thing about poetry I'm not very familiar with poetry so will defer to someone else

>>23242165
>>23242204
Replied to wrong post

>>23242165
>Is it possible to fluently read CC prose?
There's no reason why it's impossible in principle if you're familiar with the period/style and genre, but it's quite difficult to get to that point, and having it for one genre or style doesn't necessarily mean you have it for another.

Nice thread, a good NEET hobby that I have picked up and have become somewhat skilled after 6 months from being inspired by this thread

>>23242016
Ah I see, yeah that makes sense.
Is this something you kind of just have to know by the context? or is フツ signifying something important?

For 入人園圃、至攘人犬豕雞豚者 etc, is this 人 genitive? As in; to enter someone's garden; one who steals someone's animals...;

>>23242310
>Is this something you kind of just have to know by the context? or is フツ signifying something important?
Well, as mentioned above, it's a contraction of 不之. So it means it must be a verb that takes an object.
>For 入人園圃、至攘人犬豕雞豚者 etc, is this 人 genitive? As in; to enter someone's garden; one who steals someone's animals...;
Right.

>>23242246
nice

>>23242376
I agree, I just want to share my feelings with the anons here

>>23242316
I'm blind, thanks

Bump for 荀子

>>23242047
Based af

>>23243399
I initially read this as 苟子 and I was like "who's Gouzi"?

Cunnulam amō.

βάμψω πρὶν παλαίστρανδ' οἴχεσθαι

四月魚日完矣,請子屬囘帖。

>>23245676
April fish day finished, Xi jinping kung pow eggroll
t. Eternal n5 weeaboo

ιος νι σεμουν κνουμανει κακουν αδδακετ αινι τεαμας
με ζεμελως κε δεως κε Τιη τιτετικμενος ειτου.

I had a dream that there was a prose retelling of Beowulf that somebody had written in Old English

>>23246959
βοιωτίζει οὗτος

hey /clg/, if you had free reign over the educational system (or just over a particular group of students for some unspecified period of their education). How/what would you teach in terms of languages and literature, and at what level of development? Let's say that you had 1-3 hours of instruction per day.

>>23247239
Their own classics, followed by their most direct influences and so forth. That's the path that brought most of us here, I'd wager, and the foundation of most decent educations in the arts: start from folk forms, formalize them, and build up from there to the heights. See the Suzuki method.

tristis sum et nescio cur
omnia videntur foeda
quid est mihi medicamen

>>23247238
τοὐναντίον, ἐφρύγεζον.

>>23247271
crapulare garo

>>23247272
θαυμαστόν, ἡγησάμην τὴν Φρυγίαν γλῶτταν ὡς τὴν τῶν Λυδίων εἶναι τὸ γένος, ἀλλὰ ὡς τοῖς σοφοῖς δοκεῖ πολλῷ ἐγγυτέραν τῇ Ἑλληνικῇ

bump

I'm going to learn Greek in two weekends, screenshot this.

I already know the cases by heart because autism. Now I'm going to:

>1: Complete Michel Thomas Greek
>2: Complete Language Transfer Greek
>3: Go through these Greek Ollendorff audios: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aBWnoh2S-Cs

I'll be able to read both modern and ancient greek in two weeks. Remember this post.

>>23250823
I'm sorry to tell you anon but that's not how ancient Greek works. The cases are stupidly easy, it's the verbs that cause issues. At best you can kinda memorize all the endings in two weekends, but you won't be able to read shit.

>>23250823
You will be able to learn a lot about Greek in that time, but building the vocabulary to read even semi-fluently with a dictionary will take much longer. Good luck anon, and please report back.

>>23213007

Hi OP, Sanskrit Anon here who did the initial intro for:
>https://rentry dot co/n8nrko

I have another potential book / series worth adding which can help:

Devavanipravesika: An Introduction to the Sanskrit Language by Robert P. Goldman - it's a really recent book and it amazing for Westerners to pick up Sanskrit. Contains lessons, exercises and reading.

>>23252017
>>23213007

Also, Edwin F Bryant from Rutgers University is running a Sanskrit course based on the same text book:
https://sites.rutgers.edu/edwin-bryant/sanskrit-course-videos/

Linguae graecae studendo primum animadverti verba latine deponenta, quoniam partim autopathiam significent, eiusdem generis esse atque graece media. Nescio cur numquam percontatus sim quare "media tanta" sint quoque appellata, mediam vocem admodum exstinctam praesumens.

>>23250823
F

>>23252017
>>23252021
added, thx Sanskritanon

>>23250823
νήπιε, μηκέτι ταῦτα νοήματα φαῖν’ ἐνὶ δήμῳ

>>23250823
>2 weeks
Nigga, I've been studying modern Greek for 2 years and you'd be disappointed to know how slow progress is.

>>23252052
>sékʷetor > hékʷomai > ἕπομαι
>sékʷetor > sekʷōr > sequor

>>23252211
Αρέσκει μου oύτος ο αίλουρος

>>23250823
How do I download the Ollendorf thing? The download link in the description is cut off.

>>23252714
There you go: https://www.reddit.com/r/AncientGreek/comments/120p041/audio_practice_for_all_lessons_from_kendricks/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3

If you prefer the Erasmian pronunciation you can find another recording at archive.org made by what seems like an Anglo.

>>23252729
Thank you!

>>23252634
I really need to stop being such a pleb and become acquainted with Indo-European sound laws. Any reading suggestions?

>>23252801
I'm on a discord about Indo-European studies, they could give you some good resources there. Just don't be too outwardly chuddish, they don't like that.

>>23252824
I have zero interest in politics, geopolitics, race, haplotypes, and I don't have a fixation with military history. Do link your discord.

>>23252846
This link should work.
https://discord.com/invite/pPWyssu

>>23252849
Thanks.

>>23252017
I think it's been around for a while. I'm (trying) to use it myself after I found someone else recommending it online. The great filter for me is the writing system. I don't want to get myself used to reading romanized sanskrit.

What are Sanskrit textbooks like?
Are they allergic to writing their own Sanksrit texts for pedagogical purposes?

>>23253660
fuck I feel burnout from Latin and Greek but that script teasing me

>>23254305
No excuses, anon.

>>23252021
man watching the first lecture after his talk about course numbers, I feel lucky at my school where our Greek courses get less attendance even at the first lecture, yet still get offered.

>>23252634
my professor discussed this when I kept forgetting the meaning of ἔπομαι and I've never forgot its meaning since.

The more I read the more I realise I have no fucking idea what I am doing other than the fact I have learned from osmosis. I read Caesar and I only recognize what something says because I had already known the words and what they meant rather than the fact I can independently divine it through analysis. At this rate I'll never translate anything

>>23255079
In order to get the meaning of a word through context, you need a considerable vocabulary and wide reading already, or you need the process intentionally scaffolded for you as in LLPSI.
There are effective and less effective methods, but there is no royal road to a language. Keep at it.

Time for a new thread.

>>23256742
think I'll make a Norse one for a change

NOVUM
>>23256805
>>23256805
>>23256805