/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.17528138]

When someone like Bowden declares that identities such as sex, race, etc. are primordial, how exactly does he go about substantiating this claim? Is he appealing to Platonic Ideals?

I understand the idea is these are essences that are prior to any social construction or theory, but what is his proof? It seems like deconstructionism and modern physics murked the idea of essentialism a long time ago.

[Anonymous No.17528208]

>>17528138
is that Conan?

[Anonymous No.17528879]

>>17528138
>but what is his proof?
Are you fucking serious? You need a particular sequence of word to assuage your fear that what is apparent is actually apparent. Are you really this completely spiritually annihilated? How do you think humans evolved for tens of thousands of years? You really think the only difference between man and woman is different genitalia and social programming lol? You really think tens of thousands of years of evolution under entirely different environmental pressures resulted in only changes to skin tone and other superficial changes? You really think after a billion years of Jewish propaganda the sub Saharan negroid would walk on the moon with their own intellectual prowess? Brother, do you really believe that every race, every country, every other religion, every other ethnicity who has interacted with Jews is "anti Semitic" due to jealousy? Is this even logically possible? Can your lobotomized spirit even consider that evil can and does exist and that it has redefined evil as Semitic? Holy shit, you monster faggot, go outside, see for yourself. Is the sky blue? Do you have proof?

[Anonymous No.17528959]

>>17528879
Fucking savage

[Anonymous No.17529023]

there is no such thing as a social construct. doesn't exist. there is existence and non existence. in a world of flux and decay being/form enters and gives shape to matter.

what 'social construct' is aimed toward is tactical nihilism. it goes like this:
>Your Thing: not exist
>My Thing: exist
>therefore, a delusional man should castrate himself in pursuit acting out a socially constructed category (that does not really exist) in order to cure him of the anxiety he feels about not being said non-existent gender/sex

[Anonymous No.17529322]

>>17528879
So amidst your unhinged hysterics it seems you invoke evolution as the sole mechanism for differentiation of races, cognitive ability, culture, values, etc. I noticed that Bowden does something similar when he goes through his list of "Beauty is biological. Sex is biological. Intelligence is biological. Predisposition to mental illness is biological. X is biological". So there is no transcendent source involved, but merely genetic divergence according to environmental conditions. A mechanistic causal narrative.

But this is plainly materialism, which will inevitably resolve itself into some form of nominalism, or Hawking's "model-dependent realism" functioning under M-theory which subordinates metaphysics and epistemology to the natural sciences. And yet Bowden and many right wingers continually make appeals to a transcendent realm beyond the phenomena of the natural sciences which imparts form and teleology. Identities can only be primordial if they are based in such a dimension, otherwise they are nothing more than sentiments or attitudes of inner psychological states conditioned by social circumstances and CAN be reprogrammed according to whatever social scientists have calculated to be beneficial. In which case the notion of "an organism is an algorithm, and we can hack it" (something someone on the board of the World Economic Forum said, I forget who) is totally legitimate.

>Is the sky blue? Do you have proof?
this is exactly what I mean. There is a scientific account that accompanies the observation of the sky's color and gives a satisfactory explanation for the phenomenon in question. There is no such explanation accompanying the idea of primordial essences, beyond the evolutionary-psych one you gave. In which case you would be better off reading Steven Pinker than Bowden.

>>17529023
>in a world of flux and decay being/form enters and gives shape to matter.
this is an incorrect use of language. you aren't actually saying anything. "being/form enters"...from where? by what mechanism? and the proof?

[Anonymous No.17529368]

>>17529322
My proof that the sky is blue is looking outside. My proof that there are innate differences between human beings is looking at human beings. The fact that you openly admit to needing mental gymnastics to wave away what you admit you see is all the proof that you need.

[Anonymous No.17529459]

>>17529322
>biological = genetics exclusively
not the case, it means it's biological. i.e from the study of lifeforms, one can gather they behave in such and such manner. You could replace it with "organic" as well, which Bowden as all of the euro right-wingers of his generation were (iirc Guillaume Faye literally called the ideology of his archaeofuturism something like "organic constructivism")

[Anonymous No.17529466]

>>17529368
if i got my shit pushed in that hard i simply wouldn't respond. embarrassing.

[Anonymous No.17529479]

Left wing thought was founded on a phenomenological observation that the brute individual precedes all external impositions on him. In the Enlightenment the external was considered to be the cultural and historical, so the arbitrary dogmas of institutions (especially religious). There was infinite confidence that the individual, freed from dogmas, would naturally assert his natural self, which was considered to be his reason and nature-given instincts to self-assertion and self-cultivation. This Enlightenment view of the goodness of naturalness and rationality fundamentally continued through Marx, who had a more complex view of what was internal and natural and external and unnatural to the subject, based on a Hegelian conception of the subject as a creative (including self-creative) "maker" of externality; through to Engels, who even came to identify the "bourgeois" family as an unnatural imposition or externality; and through to the Frankfurt School Marxists, who were the last left wingers to positively appraise classical Enlightenment rationality. Even though the Frankfurt School criticised the "dialectic of enlightenment" they still intended for this classical instrumental rationality, unalloyed, to be sublated into something higher, not just destroyed or deconstructed.

Modern left wing thought, after the Frankfurt School, is also based on a final critique of reason itself in the name of reason or as the summa of reason, but unlike the Frankfurt School it gleefully destroys reason with nothing to replace it. All reason becomes contingent, particular, fragmenting into a pluralist "discourse of discourses" in which no one is right (being right is always potentially tyrannical), but no one is wrong. The leftists who push this thesis to its logical conclusions, nihilism, live safely in the margins and ivory towers of society, where their nihilism is either applied only to effete bohemian hedonism or at least goes unnoticed. The liberals who benefit from and appropriate their theories, however, graft them onto a highly tyrannical liberal framework that "critiques" (smugly deconstructs, sarcastically frames as naive) anything that would disturb liberalism, including the old bourgeois social values (family, privacy, individuality, right to self-assertion and self-direction which requires autonomy and therefore property) that created liberalism. Liberalism thus transforms into a technocratic oligarchy of selectively humanist nihilists with a few usefully nihilistic "theory"-crafters as its pets. Judith Butler is useful for increasing the prestige of deconstruction and nihilism because she never has to see its consequences. She churns the shit from up in her ivory tower where she can safely retire for her nightly fisting.

[Anonymous No.17529490]

>>17529479
Right wing thought is not based on an irrational assertion of particular essentialism, thus not on a resistance to particular deconstructions of particular essences, but on the rational assertion that our existence is already essentially structured whether we rationally understand the essences or not. Right wing thought is thus in the same boat as left wing thought, in that it begins with a phenomenological and not a metaphysical observation about life: we come pre-structured, we are always already manifesting and embodying forms which are not given to us in conscious thought beforehand. The right winger would be closer to the Enlightenment "left wing" thinker in that he acknowledges most of the classical bourgeois social values: family, privacy, individuality, autonomy, property.

The right winger's position is only unrecognisable to the modern left winger, who paradoxically demands a reasonable accounting of all values prior to their being admitted, according to the demands of reason, a value admitted without being accounted for. The only thing the modern left winger retains from the traditional left wing is the presumption that his individuality is not to be trammeled. But his "individual" has shed all its content, lost everything other than its abstract individuality, a mutation of the merely negative condition of bourgeois liberty (the right to privacy and individuality, the right to associate only voluntarily, becomes the condition of permanent aloneness in a completely alien world). The modern left winger does not even have the Marxist labouring subject anymore, the "maker" of externality, because this puts demands on the individual that he "live up to" the image of manly striving contained in the abstract image of the Marxian worker. That would be an external demand.

[Anonymous No.17529498]

>>17529490
The atrophied, atomised, merely theoretical "self" of the modern left winger is the ideal subject of regimes of control, which do not want tight control of complex entities, but loose, "hands-off" control of simple entities. He refuses any identity, even identity with his own family, so he can't enjoy (or as the right winger would say, experience the ineffable joy of) solidarity with a group or class. Sameness is always the enemy because sameness starts from the presumption of correctness and essence, it is the old abstract universal subsuming a particular concrete individual. The only sameness the left winger wants is sameness in perfect difference. He instinctively deconstructs solidarity, excellence, hierarchy, fellowship and even brotherhood. He flees from camaraderie and organisation. This atrophies his natural human drive toward such things, and hypertrophies his equally natural human drive toward sloth, hedonism, disengagement. The deeper he sinks into these things, the harder it is to convince him that he is becoming something less than human. All he can say is "prove to me that striving for excellence is good! prove to me that fellowship and hierarchy are natural! prove it! I'm perfectly happy being an anarchist and eating the goop the liberal state provides!" His entire world becomes constituted by symbols long absorbed and commodified by liberalism itself. His favourite video game is pretending to be an anarchist on the internet. The revolution is coming any day now.

Unlike the left winger, the right winger is trying to identify concrete things in the world that need rescuing, things that are already there, and strategise for their rescue. This is because the right winger wasn't sold his entire idea of radical praxis by a liberal media company, or a liberal bookstore owned by a company that hired mercenaries to commit war crimes against striking natives of the country where the books are made. The right winger doesn't plan to prove to the left winger that he should stop eating goop and getting distracted, and focus on the essential. He figures that problem will mostly solve itself, since the left winger has cut off his penis and encouraged all his friends to enjoy the liberal pastime of amoral sexual hedonism and libertinism well into their 30s, and they have all become barren. Of the few who do have children, those children are being encouraged to deconstruct sameness even more, to cut off their penises and sterilise themselves before they even reach adulthood. The right winger, meanwhile, has "irrationally" essences whose existence he can't prove, and built a family who don't eat state-sanctioned, corporate-produced goop.

[Anonymous No.17529507]

>>17529498
Not being distracted by abstract goals of praxis elaborated by wealthy intellectuals in the ivory tower, the right winger also wins a major election on an inchoate platform of right wing ideals, which mysteriously provokes an alliance of every liberal, every statist, every corporate plutocrat, every high-theory left wing intellectual, and every so-called left winger in the world, all joining voices to say the same thing. The right winger takes this as a sign that he's on the right track about at least some of those essences whose existence he can't prove. He also goes out and finds other things that provoke the ire and deconstructive attacksof the left-liberal alliance, and tries to help them too, so they can continue flowing freely from their own unjustified, "irrational" essences. Whatever those might be, they seem to piss off the deconstructers and the rich unhappy degenerates in the ivory tower who want to export their unhappiness to others. Meanwhile the left winger's own political representatives are revealed to be grifting crypto-liberals and sell-outs who stamp "Yes" on every Palestinian-vaporising war criminal cabinet appointee of the next administration.

Sometimes you just know it in your gut. If your gut doesn't tell you something's wrong when you're hanging out with a bunch of pathological narcissist transvestites who use weekly suicide threats as a tactic to maintain their friend networks, something's wrong with your gut. If your gut doesn't tell you something's wrong when all those compassionate leftist groups have a rape and sexual assault problem 10x worse than any right wing group, something's wrong. But then right and wrong are essentialist concepts.

[Anonymous No.17529537]

>>17529479
>>17529490
>>17529498
>>17529507
Based deboonker

[Anonymous No.17529610]

>>17528879
the world is annihilating of course retards like this exist ahah dont get mad at them just enjoy the fact that your perspective is a rare commodity.

[Anonymous No.17529826]

>>17529459
>i.e from the study of lifeforms, one can gather they behave in such and such manner
Yes, this is called science. Biology. It reduces to chemistry. Which reduces to physics. "life" is a certain configuration of matter.

>>17529479
>>17529490
>>17529498
>>17529507
So the right wing view is to give up on any verifiable, positivist account of reality, make an unironic retreat into "feelz > realzz", accept "gut" feelings as the pinnacle of theory (apparently being unaware of the science behind "gut" feelings), and slowly get banned from all media platforms for promulgating antisemitic rhetoric because their essences demand it.

Thanks for clarifying the position. Truly a mystery why none of this is to be found in academia. I'm not wasting any more time on these clowns.

[Anonymous No.17529848]

>>17528138
I think Bowden was just a rhetorician. I wouldn’t really take him as a philosopher actually justifying logical positions.

[Anonymous No.17529876]

>>17529826
based refutation. like a surgeon.

[Anonymous No.17531154]

>>17529876
There's nothing in his post that remotely resembles a counter-argument. He might as well have just posted "cope" or "seethe"

[Anonymous No.17531750]

>>17528138
sho is this semon demen?

[Anonymous No.17531868]

>>17531750
Jonathan Bowden.

[Anonymous No.17531895]

>>17529322
(1 of 2)
>you invoke evolution as the sole mechanism for differentiation of races, cognitive ability, culture, values, etc.
It is, even for culture and values. Because underneath these things there is only biology and biology's reaction to environment.

I have not read or watched much Bowden. I did watch 30 minutes of an epic rant of his on youtube and instantly KNEW that this man was my brother. In addition I am not well read in general and have no education above a GED. What I do have is a an entire youth raised among the liberal leftcuck elite. Keep all this in mind as I deconstruct and anally rape your sanctimonious pseudo intellectual bull shit with nothing more than real world experience and IQ.

>So there is no transcendent source involved, but merely genetic divergence according to environmental conditions. A mechanistic causal narrative.
Nice straw man argument there you disingenuous faggot cuck. Like I said, I have not studied Bowden so I don't know what he thinks on the subject but there is no mutual exclusivity here. If there is a divine force it may work upon the manifest material world through primordial intervention. If there is a god or supernatural force it could have set things in motion at a primordial time then worked forwards as "a mechanistic causal narrative". Why is this hard for you to fathom? I think you are intentionally being disingenuous due to your pathological cuckedness and cowardliness.

>nothing more than sentiments or attitudes of inner psychological states conditioned by social circumstances and CAN be reprogrammed according to whatever social scientists have calculated to be beneficial
This line is incredible!
Not everything is within the realm of "CAN" be reprogrammed. Blank Slate theory and everything derived from it has ZERO scientific validity. The more neuroscience, evolutionary genetics, evolutionary psychology and other related fields develop the harder Blank Slate theory gets BTFO'd. My point is that "reprogramming" as you put it, is confined to underlying biology and this gets supported with more and more scientific evidence every year IN SPITE of the concerted effort of the Left to stop it or spin it or ignore it or label it "racist" lol.
This part was scary, "whatever social scientists have calculated to be beneficial". What a disgusting coward you are. What an appeal to authority. You WANT an authoritarian body telling you what to do and to think lol. A major tenet of Leftism seems to be projection. Scream and yell about the threat of a non existent authoritarian fascist dictator but this is what you really want, just will different and fanciful political views. You are basically a woman who wants a strong man to tell her how to think, fucking pathetic, and scary. "World Economic Forum" or whoever, why do you want them or trust them to tell you how to think? This is insane. You are completely atomized and coged into the machine...

[Anonymous No.17531899]

>>17531895
(2 of 2)
...Another great hypocrisy of the Left is to rage against the machine while actually BEING THE FUCKING MACHINE, fucking hell. It would all be so funny if it weren't all so destructive and grotesque.

>I understand the idea is these are essences that are prior to any social construction or theory, but what is his proof?
>>Is the sky blue? Do you have proof?
>this is exactly what I mean. There is a scientific account that accompanies the observation of the sky's color and gives a satisfactory explanation for the phenomenon in question. There is no such explanation accompanying the idea of primordial essences, beyond the evolutionary-psych one you gave. In which case you would be better off reading Steven Pinker than Bowden.
You have confused the shit out of yourself. Your logic is broken and/or non existent. The sky was blue BEFORE scientific explanation. Remove the history of humanity from earth and the earth's sky is still blue. There is ZERO social construction going on here other than with the language used to describe this phenomenon. And in this sense I imagine Bowden views his beliefs as underpinned by biology. There is ZERO evidence or logical induction to suggest that evolutionary pressures resulted in the magical Leftcuck fantasy world where men, women, whites, blacks, Asians, Syrians, Papua New Guineans all magically have the same innate abilities, aptitudes, predilections, predispositions, etc. There are obvious and wildly divergent superficial differences that evolved to suit particular environments over tens of thousand of years in separation. To pretend evolutionary adaptation is purely superficial is religion. You are part of the religion of Leftism. Leftism is your anti science, anti reality, anti truth, hate filled religion. Bowden's idea that differences are primordial sounds like a belief that differences are biological with a possibly supernatural underpinning or origin (nothing is mutually exclusive here). The essence of Bowden sounds like a believe in a Nature divine. I personally believe that too but even without Nature or god biology still underpins it all and there is nothing you can do about that but deny it like the cowardly religious bitchboi that you are. This is why the tide is slowly turning. The Left, although firmly entrenched in academia, has gone full throttle religion.

You can't refute any of this. You can only appeal to the authority of academia using academic jargon and pilpul. How does it feel to get your shit pushed in my someone who dropped out of high school and now owns his own home? Imagine paying tens of thousands of dollars to be indoctrinated into a fake and gay leftwing suicide cult

[Anonymous No.17531907]

>>17531750
Bowden's sperm receptacle. She can only be pleasured by right wings man bulls

[Anonymous No.17531914]

>>17529466
That wasn't me. This is though
>>17531895
>>17531899
But I was and am the top. I pushed his shit in so far he can taste it as he cooms

[Anonymous No.17532246]

>>17529507
Excellent post. I love this idea:

>right wing ideals, which mysteriously provokes an alliance of every liberal, every statist, every corporate plutocrat, every high-theory left wing intellectual, and every so-called left winger in the world

The irony and hypocrisy of Leftism is awesome and stupefying to behold.

Here's a related blog post I just read.
https://lexic.co/barfblog/the-coming-implosion-of-the-left

Complete insanity is the norm in Clown World
Good luck to you brother

[Anonymous No.17532261]

>>17529826
>So the right wing view is to give up on any verifiable, positivist account of reality, make an unironic retreat into "feelz > realzz", accept "gut" feelings as the pinnacle of theory (apparently being unaware of the science behind "gut" feelings), and slowly get banned from all media platforms for promulgating antisemitic rhetoric because their essences demand it.
>Thanks for clarifying the position. Truly a mystery why none of this is to be found in academia. I'm not wasting any more time on these clowns.
That's not at all what he said. You too make a disingenuous attempt at understanding. Go back to your jews that you trust so much. I'm sure they care about you as much as you care about them.

[Anonymous No.17532265]

>>17529876
You're an idiot.

This guy is correct.
>>17531154

[Anonymous No.17532463]

>>17528138
You need to be taught that they're social construct.

[Anonymous No.17532502]

He would have loved the meme war, literally the exact thing he had been talking about and predicting.

Probably would have become one of the most famous figures of the Right through it as well. As just a couple of months before his death, he was invited to move to America and start a podcast, with pay of course. What countless hours of his speaking will we never hear?

[Anonymous No.17532542]

>>17528879
Correct. Everyone else can go dilate.

[Anonymous No.17532632]

>>17532463
No. That idea has been BTFO'd out of this thread. Please read the thread with your tear drop bucket at the ready and a soft pillow under your ass for your incoming raging butthurt.

[Anonymous No.17532720]

>>17532632
You need to be taught that they're social construct. Or think really really hard about it. Their existence meanwhile is apparent to a newborn.

[Anonymous No.17532753]

>>17529322
>So there is no transcendent source involved, but merely genetic divergence according to environmental conditions.
That's not what he's saying you utter retard, he's just saying that they are innate. He himself believes in the existence of the transcendent, and traditional religious mentalities, beauty for him can become the image of all life itself, but that doesn't stop him from merely stating the existent fact that your entire character is not something that you can just meaninglessly change willy nilly or ignore.

>And yet Bowden and many right wingers continually make appeals to a transcendent realm beyond the phenomena of the natural sciences which imparts form and teleology. Identities can only be primordial if they are based in such a dimension, otherwise they are nothing more than sentiments or attitudes of inner psychological states conditioned by social circumstances and CAN be reprogrammed according to whatever social scientists have calculated to be beneficial. In which case the notion of "an organism is an algorithm, and we can hack it" (something someone on the board of the World Economic Forum said, I forget who) is totally legitimate.
Yes, according to you. Bowden isn't saying everything is just base matter or evolution, but there is practically an infinitude of transcendental (or traditional) moral evaluations of the world that do not just come from an overly literal theological model. Never in all this, do you seem to be able to (a thing so important for the art of speech, rather than treatise-writing) separate character and word. As Carlyle said the religion of the man lies in some way before word, or really that the only meaningful way the religion of a man can be tested or defined is through his feelings and actions, the point is that Bowden is affirming that which is traditional, noble and good. If speaking were just built around exact-terming logic, it might as well be a bureaucrat financial report.

Your entire post is as the other anon pointed out, a strawman ignoring what Bowden was saying, or too dumb to care about anything more than what is necessarily a very MODERN reaction, and a very MODERN Larp. Just take that you take for granted that Bowden is saying evolution and science is the only understanding of the human being, when he obviously never has. Literally just an autistic screeching about terms, like "biological."

[Anonymous No.17532779]

>>17528138
>sex, race, etc. are primordial, how exactly does he go about substantiating this claim?
He doesnt have to, they literally are, these two things where literally shaped tens to hundreds of thousands of years of evolution.

[Anonymous No.17532787]

>>17528879
Remember folks, the left is just another term for the herd of untthinking followers (and so is the right btw). Anyone who thinks he belongs to either is a slave.

[Anonymous No.17532811]

>>17532787
There's a difference between these sides being stand-ins for primordial beliefs like how Bowden raises it up and pies into the history of the Right wing, and then just the literal jargon and words being thrown around. But it is an important fact that the masses are conservative in nature, but you seem to be treating the masses as a moral evil just because they are by their character what they are, and as if there aren't moral differences between some portions of the masses and others. That is true relativism, a narcissistic one too.

[Anonymous No.17532833]

>>17531154
>here's nothing in his post that remotely resembles a counter-argument.
Why would he bother when even if presented with an argument you will just defer to the gurgling feeling in your tumtum and claim it divine intuition that transcends all argumentation?

[Anonymous No.17532849]

>>17529826
>positivist
Stopped reading there. Imagine being a logical positivist in the 21st century.

[Anonymous No.17532931]

>>17528138
>When someone like Bowden declares that identities such as sex, race, etc. are primordial, how exactly does he go about substantiating this claim? Is he appealing to Platonic Ideals?
lol, are you actually as you retarded as you sound?

[Anonymous No.17533204]

>>17529876
what refutation lol this butthurt nigger literally said "lol ur stupid I'm leaving this thread"

[Anonymous No.17534541]

>>17532787
What is it with retards like this on this board? Why has the quality of the board declined so quickly recently?

[Anonymous No.17534556]

>>17529466
Why do yanks on this board talk like absolute faggots

[Anonymous No.17534710]

Sex is primordial because the differences that sex brings would exist without society, you said it yourself! I acknowledge that even the evolution of sex differences might have been influenced by the ways society structures itself, but it structures itself in certain ways because of things like sex, it's a feedback loop.

Race is more difficult but even denying biological differences there's the natural xenophobia we feel that may even stem from the subject-object division.

It's not so much physical proof as logical proof. Imagine a person who sprung from the ground without any fellow humans (we can't imagine this really, but we can try), would his/her sex be irrelevant to his/her function, would the environmental situation that produces race be irrelevant to him/her?

[Anonymous No.17534731]

>>17529507
Well written, I very much enjoyed your analysis. Do you know of anything addressing modern left Vs right written in a similar style prose e.g. fairly straightforward?

[Anonymous No.17534771]

Oh my God, who the hell cares?

[Anonymous No.17534865]

>>17534771
(You)

[Anonymous No.17535844]

>>17528138
I love the idea that when Bowden was knocking on doors for the British National Party he went with another person and looked like that.

I mean if someone did that on my doorstep I would definitely vote for him.

[Anonymous No.17535854]

>>17535844
They made significant gains in one ward of London, for a party that was deemed dissident. There's a documentary about it

[Anonymous No.17536619]

>>17535854
https://youtu.be/Y9KYD-vL0_c

It's a funny watch, some of the comments by the labour politician made me laugh