/lit/ reads the Divine Comedy - Official

[Anonymous No.22110780]

I'm the original original poster. I got was unfortunately on ban for few days due to some misunderstanding with the janitors, no doubt they were bucking for raise. Some others have stepped up in the meantime. This is the latest thread, recapping the first five cantos (we are reading one per day) with the sixth being read today.

Some options questions, answer one or more if you'd like. There is difference of opinion among Dante scholars on these.

>Canto I
What do the three animals represent? The image is drawn from Jeremiah 6:5

>Canto II
Why is Virgil selected as Dante's guide? He inspired his poetic style, but how does this make him an ideal guide in hell and purgatory?


>Canto III
Is line 4 compatible with God as the Prime Mover?

>Canto IV
Why is Saladin ascribed to limbo when his life's work was fighting Christianity and killing Christians? Why isn't he placed at a lower level where there are Christians who fought for Christianity?

>Canto V
Dante the pilgrim (the character within the play rather than older Dante as narrator) sympathizes with Francesca. Are readers intended to as well? Or are we supposed to see her as simply good at rhetoric and Dante as naive?

Resources

discord
https://discord.gg/2UvwjZyvBx

100 days of Dante which includes a lecture on each Canto and the text
https://100daysofdante.com/

Digital Dante: written commentary on the text: https://digitaldante.columbia.edu/dante/divine-comedy/

Dante in Translation: a Yale lectures serious by an Italian academic on appreciating Dante in translation: https ://www.youtube.com/watch?v=679FGDpZBew&list=PLD1450DFDA859F694

An abridged Aeneid with a full cast of voice actors including Ralph Fiennes as Aeneas: https://ia803400.us.archive.org/2/items/aenvr/The%20Aeneid%20by%20Virgil/Virgil%20-%20The%20Aeneid%20%28Dramatisation%29%28BBC%20Radio%20Collection%29.mp3

[Anonymous No.22110841]

What makes Dante shilled so much here? The whole tradcath thing?

[Anonymous No.22110894]

Glad your back OP. I didn't think you would give up 4 days in.

[Anonymous No.22110900]

>>22110894
I actually only managed to post until Canto 2. I noticed someone even responded by OP for Canto 2 for a later canto. Hopefully I stay unbanned this time

[Anonymous No.22110929]

>>22110841
No, Dante actually criticizes the church and popes in the poem

[Anonymous No.22110943]

>>22110780
>Why is Saladin ascribed to limbo when his life's work was fighting Christianity and killing Christians? Why isn't he placed at a lower level where there are Christians who fought for Christianity?

i thought this quite remarkable as well. the entire first circle of hell seems to me to be really a criticism of the christian idea that salvation is exclusive to baptized christians. the injustice of the situation seems very apparent when he mentions the great greek thinkers like homer, aristoteles being held there.

[Anonymous No.22110981]

>>22110943
How wrong you are

[Anonymous No.22111046]

>>22110981
bitch, least explain yourself

[Anonymous No.22111221]

>>22110943
>>22111046
Dante actually follows the Christian doctrine on his time faithfully in the poem, though there are couple of, let's say, Poetical liberties he takes. As a rule, people who have not been baptized or people who have not asked forgiveness for their sins and accepted Jesus, go to Hell. This rule is followed very precisely in the poem (You might also raise the issue of Cato, but the poem never says he is saved either). Your Saladin, Homer, Hector, and others are in fact in Hell. It is just that they are in the Limbo part of Hell where they do not suffer but they are not saved either; there is no paradise for them. Dante takes Poetical liberties saying that these are people who made no sins but says this alone is not enough for redemption, and we might say here that while it is against the Christian doctrine to say that anyone lived without sin except Jesus and few exceptions, Dante merely means that these people in Limbo lived 'virtuous' lives and for this, they are not condemned into suffering.

>the entire first circle of hell seems to me to be really a criticism of the christian idea that salvation
None in Limbo are saved. Virgil and the others are likewise damned.

>the injustice of the situation seems very apparent when he mentions the great greek thinkers like homer, aristoteles being held there.
Throughout the Poem, Dante admires what people can achieve with virtue, rationality, and humanity even without God's mercy, but all that can only win you so much favor. It is only in Purgatory where these issues are handled more thoroughly. Many great thinkers and people are in lower levels as well. It is Dante's partiality towards some individuals that makes him place them in Limbo, rather than suffer below, but none of this really is in any way a criticism of the Christian doctrine. On the contrary, Dante is very conscious in the whole poem about this dogma, and follows it closely, him being himself a devout Christian at the point of writing it.

When it comes to Saladin, Dante sees him as one who lived virtuously and was a great man of his time. At no point of Hell is there really a distinction on who is Christian and who is not; Hell is filled with both, but being Christian is the only way to get to Paradise (expect for the rare cases mentioned by Virgil in Canto IV)

[Anonymous No.22111289]

>>22110780
>What do the three animals represent?
Lion = Pride
Leopards = Envy
She-wolf = Greed

>Why is Virgil selected as Dante's guide? He inspired his poetic style, but how does this make him an ideal guide in hell and purgatory?
Dante requires someone noble whom he admires very much. Someone wise enough to show him around and educated him on the journey. But even he, has his flaws; bounded by rationality he can't step into the Eternal Paradise for he can't surrender rationality for revelation.

>Is line 4 compatible with God as the Prime Mover?
I don't see the issue. Never is it mentioned that Hell was created in the beginning. Nay, Hell was made when Lucifer rebelled and fell.

>Dante the pilgrim (the character within the play rather than older Dante as narrator) sympathizes with Francesca. Are readers intended to as well? Or are we supposed to see her as simply good at rhetoric and Dante as naive?
Not Dante nor the readers should sympathize with any of the damned to be honest. To criticize God's perfect Justice? No, we should celebrate. Francesca quotes Dante his own book La Vita Nuova and one other love poem. Dante, who very much admires the love poets of Sicily and the dolce stil novo (sweet new style) feels pity for Francesca, not only because the pursuit of love made them damned, but also because he feels partly responsible; Francesca read him book and might have been influenced by it to commit sin.

[Anonymous No.22111313]

>>22111221
you talked a lot but didnt really say anything to counter my idea. i understand that the poets are in limbo aka hell. as a non-christian it immediately strikes me as a grave injustice that these virtuous poets who didnt sin (had they sinned, they would be, by the logic of the book, in the lower circles) are caught in hell through no fault of their own (they couldnt have learned about god). which made me wonder if dante didnt think this way too, else would he not have set the story up in a way that would either a) make their damnation to hell seem more deserved or b) skip the topic of the pagans or introduce only lesser or sinful ones? he at the least does no effort to make this christian dogma seem rational which is why i assume he to some degree must have personally found it irrational (although he may still have accepted it as “truthful” for the sake of his faith).

[Anonymous No.22111348]

>>22111313
>as a non-christian it immediately strikes me as a grave injustice that these virtuous poets who didnt sin are caught in hell through no fault of their own
Not my problem.
Dante is very clearly making this point, and this point will be clear to you if you ever read the Divine Comedy, is that redemption is only possible through Jesus Christ. Revelation trumps rationality. Who are you, unbeliever, to judge God's Justice?
>you talked a lot
lol

[Anonymous No.22111364]

>>22111313
>>22111348
One way to formulate an answer would be to say that Dante laid out the workings of Limbo as were thought at his time. However, Catholic church today has a different answer to this. You can find out by reading Catechism of the Catholic Church Nr. 637.

[Anonymous No.22111396]

>>22111348
>Who are you, unbeliever, to judge God's Justice?
you know if you dont have any counter arguments based on traceable logic and evidence (as opposed to proclaimed religious dogma) it would be helpful if you refrained from shitting up the conversation. for most people the interest in this book is purely in terms of a history of ideas.

[Anonymous No.22111421]

>>22111396
>for most people the interest in this book is purely in terms of a history of ideas.
Oh no! My favourite writers of antiquity didn't make it into Heaven. I'll shitpost here and try to convince others the book isn't highly theological and a way for Dante to formulate his Christian thoughts, to show everyone that path to Heaven lies in Faith alone.
New age atheists are really the worst. Did your father make you go to Sunday school?

[Anonymous No.22111429]

>>22111289
The issue is the phrasing of line 4 which says justice moved God (the unmoved mover). This emphasizes that he massive importance of justice but still, how is justice to be understood here?

[Anonymous No.22111430]

hey guys, what edition should i get? either one with commentary/ annotations included, or if that's not possible, what commentary should i grab?

[Anonymous No.22111431]

>>22111430
Penguin Classics

[Anonymous No.22111435]

>>22111429
God encompasses all, also Justice. It was his own Justice.

[Anonymous No.22111476]

>>22110841
Dante is one of the most influential poets, ever. He is rightly shilled

[Anonymous No.22111488]

>>22111421
>a way for Dante to formulate his Christian thoughts, to show everyone that path to Heaven lies in Faith alone.
that is your subjective idea of the books intention, there are other viable interpretations. all the jabs at his contemporaries and political opponents do not serve a theological purpose - just to mention one inconsistency.

[Anonymous No.22111491]

>>22111488
Have you read the book?

[Anonymous No.22111514]

>>22111488
>implying one can't do both at the same time
The absolute state of those who haven't read the whole Commedia

[Anonymous No.22111538]

>>22111491
will answer this after you provide evidence for the existence of a christian god

[Anonymous No.22111550]

>>22111538
No one cares whether you read it or not. You probably wouldn't understand it either way.

[Anonymous No.22111561]

>>22111550
seethe and dilate

[Anonymous No.22111676]

>>22110780
I can't tell if the one on the right is 12 or 50

[Anonymous No.22111698]

>>22111676
It’s AI

[Anonymous No.22111704]

>>22111698
Al who?

[Anonymous No.22111966]

>>22111704
>>22111698
>>22111676
You people belong in the Vestibule

[Anonymous No.22111978]

>>22111966
I still don't know who Al is tho, is that a young Camus or something?

[Strange Love No.22112054]

>>22111488

>there are other viable interpretations

There certainly are. But srsly, that's not for everyone. :)

[Anonymous No.22112219]

>>22110780
On the Saladin question (that to my knowledge was only answered by one ignorant anon thinking it was a critique of salvation through baptism):

It is an interesting question because what all these men in this level have in common is that they are scientists/philosophers/poets (i.e. geniuses) who also were pious to their religion and virtuous within their knowledge of the good. What differentiates the Muslims there from the pagans is that the pagans lived before Christ's death and resurrection, and by virtue of their ignorance, could impossibly convert in their lifetime. The Muslims however could. So it is definitely strange, doubly so for Saladin who murdered Christians. I think Dante the poet admires the character and achievements of these men so much, and probably ascribes the men's religions to their cultural circumstances. Therefore he thinks that if these men were born in a Christian culture, becsuse of their piety and loyalty to their cultures, they would be pious Christians - this is equally true for the Muslims as for the pagans.

Just my initial thoughts, I could be wrong. I'm interested what scholars have said in answer to this question, doe's anyone know?

[Anonymous No.22112301]

>>22112219
I don’t personally think piety defines them. Ovid for example boasts in The Metamorphoses that his poem will become famous *in spite* of Jove’s wrath. No one thought Ovid was especially pious. Dante places him here because he is a great poet, and Virgil makes it clear being a world-class poet is enough to elevate some men. This is Dante showing a strong difference with Aquinas who saw poetry as a frivolous pursuit and a waste of time, and referred to poets as professional liars. Dante—who is theologically very influenced by Aquinas—is throwing the gauntlet down in regard to this medieval marginalization of poets. And indeed it would be Dante who would make poetry and writing fiction in general no longer regarded as frivolous but a sacred and respectable profession as it was seen in antiquity. Petrarch likewise confronts Augustine on this on the dialogue he wrote.

But all this does not exactly explain Saladin. Plus someone can be pious and still disliked by Dante. He places Pope Celestine V with the neutrals for his “great refusal”, excluding him from even purgatory. A notably pious pope but in Dante’s opinion an ignoble man just the same.

So why would he elevate a man like Saladin above a pope who took the religion seriously? Certainly Saladin was well aware of Christianity, in fact there can be no doubt he knew far more about it than Dante did about Islam since Christians were abundant in the Middle East at that time, not even looking at the crusades. Saladin was also not religiously inert but was considered a decent scholar of religion and someone who engaged in talks with Christians. Yet he still opted to fight them and promote Islam.

[Anonymous No.22112575]

it's actually really easy to appreciate Dante as a non-believer as long as you read for the narrative themes and characters and not necessarily the theology

Of course, if you hold to the same faiths Dante did you'll appreciate the beautifully rendered Thomism, but even if you don't there's much to get out of the poem

If you are going to reply to this telling me i will burn I expect you to have actually read the Summa, otherwise you're just LARPing and I don't respect you

[Anonymous No.22112663]

>>22110780
>Why is Virgil selected as Dante's guide?
Because Dante Algherri is a fucking punk and there are very few people he respects. Virgil fits the criteria to
>Be someone not bound to hell (i.e. a non-Christian)
>Be someone Dante respects (which is tied to the plot when we learn of his sin)
>Be someone his readers know and likely respect
>Fulfil Dante's mentor fantasy of having the man who inspired his prose be his guide
That's it, really.

[Anonymous No.22112671]

>>22112575
Believers have similar proclivities when reading I/P/P as they are in effect, fanfiction. Most people reading it don't read it to see when hell is supposedly like but instead for the same reasons you are.

[Anonymous No.22112685]

>>22112663
>prose

Anon....

[Anonymous No.22112689]

>>22112685
I'm five shots in, fuck off

[Anonymous No.22112721]

>>22112301
I agree it's not only piety, maybe Dante just admired his intellect and great feats in battle. But you didn't adress my point of being born in a Christian context. Even though Saladin may have "talked" to Christians whatever that means, he was born and raised in a Muslim culture, and swore his loyalty to Allah, and faufgt bravely for him. If he was raised Christian, perhaps Dante thought his character would be transfered to being a great a Christian military leader and scholar. Whatever it is, it likely has to do with Dante's admiration for the man's achievements and character, as those that the types he put in the first ring, even if piety might not be thr deciding factor.

[Anonymous No.22112734]

>>22112663
>Dante is fucking punk
This is some weird recent millenial poet /literature majors thing I've noticed recently where old historical poets get labeled "punk" for not adhering to societal norms. Weird how you picked that up and posted it on a Mongolian basked weaving forum of all places.

[Anonymous No.22112812]

>>22112721
I will give you my theory

Saladin was said to have greasy virtue in the Roman sense (virtus) and to have been magnanimous (an important character quality in Dante). The fact that he seldom sacked or pillaged gave him a certain reputation, especially when to rape and massacre civilians after a battle and pick them clean were considered normal in warfare. the fact that he did behead prisoners sometimes would not have been considered as serious in light of that.

[Anonymous No.22112820]

>>22112734
Why do you assume I picked it up? I have too much common sense to even stick my nose in a lit major or minor.
>Pisses off most of Florence with his writing by insulting the fat cat in charge
>Slams the entire church and Vatican
>Puts major historical figures (heroes included) into different layers of hell because he found it funny
It's not about him BEING punk, it's about the man himself being A punk.
If you've noticed it's increased usage it's because meme magic flows strongly in my veins and I make no apologies.

[Anonymous No.22112885]

>>22112812
I forgot that about Saladin but makes sense that Dante would admire the Christian ethics he adhered to being a powerful leader but merciful.

[Anonymous No.22114002]

>Why Saladin?

Dante makes it very clear:

To me the Master good: “Thou dost not ask
What spirits these, which thou beholdest, are?
Now will I have thee know, ere thou go farther,

That they sinned not; and if they merit had,
’Tis not enough, because they had not baptism
Which is the portal of the Faith thou holdest;

And if they were before Christianity,
In the right manner they adored not God;
And among such as these am I myself.

For such defects, and not for other guilt,
Lost are we and are only so far punished,
That without hope we live on in desire.”

[Anonymous No.22114026]

>>22110929
his poem is nevertheless called "the summa in verse." don't get it twisted.
Carlyle even called him "the melodious Priest of Middle-Age Catholicism."

[Anonymous No.22114039]

>>22112721
Saladin is famously renown for being a just, virtuous, merciful and great military leader. Almost no one dislikes him

[Anonymous No.22114343]

>>22112663
>Be someone not bound to hell (i.e. a non-Christian)
Excuse me what?

[Anonymous No.22114353]

>>22114343
Presumably he means someone from limbo (technically is the first circle of hell) rather than a deeper hell. Although this is not important since Virgil is also able to go through purgatory, he can go wherever he is sanctioned to. The problem in the eyes of most is why Virgil and not a saint dispatched from heaven as a guide?

[Anonymous No.22114383]

>>22114353
Because they are both Poets and thus will with more ease understand one another. Additionally, none of the saints have been to Hell. Perhaps they even can't or don't want to go to Hell, just like Beatrice wants to help Dante but wont do it herself.

[Anonymous No.22114389]

>>22114383
Beatrice can and does venture to hell to ask Virgil to be Dante’s guide, so they can visit hell within the poem. They are adverse to it. Perhaps you mean Virgil is less adverse to visiting the lower regions? But then there is also Purgatory which he stays guide throughout

[Anonymous No.22114457]

>>22114389
Perhaps, Dante wishes to continue the great poetic tradition. That is, the continuation of Homer, Hesiod, Greek Tragedies all the way through Aeneid and connect these with Christianity, and for this poetic continuity he chooses Virgil because he admires him, and at the same time he elevates himself among the great poets like he does in Canto IV.

[Anonymous No.22114582]

>>22111488
Checked.
>>22111421
>Did your father make you go to Sunday school?
Stop seething, not all people agree with Dante nor you. Anon is asking legit questions and you are too retarded to even answer him without showing a lack of respect.

[Anonymous No.22114600]

>>22111313
But note Dante doesn’t just ascribe pagans there based on ignorance. He ascribes three Muslims to limbo who were all erudite enough to be familiar with Christianity and in fact lived in lands where many Christians lived

[Anonymous No.22114631]

>>22114582
>please be considerate in 4chan

[Anonymous No.22114689]

>>22110943
>the injustice of the situation seems very apparent when he mentions the great greek thinkers like homer, aristoteles being held there.
It might seem that way, but the whole points of the poem is that he comes understand that it isn't an injustice at all.

[Anonymous No.22114697]

>>22114689
Stop being so rude! You can't just imply people should read the book to understand it.

[Anonymous No.22114713]

>Canto V

Wait, why is Achilles associated with lust? Shouldn't he be down with the wrathful?

[Anonymous No.22114738]

>>22114713
Dante never read Homer. He got his information from secondary sources. In medieval literature Achilles' story is a bit different.

[Anonymous No.22114782]

>>22114713
Her wasn’t translated into Latin until 1488.

[Anonymous No.22114785]

>>22114713
Homer

[Anonymous No.22114797]

>>22114785
>>22114782
5 shots in?

[Anonymous No.22114806]

>>22114713
Dante’s conception of Achilles comes from the poetry of Statius rather than Homer since Dante couldn’t read Greek. Statius depicts him as love-driven

[Anonymous No.22114820]

>>22114806
Interesting, thanks for pointing that out.

[Anonymous No.22115104]

Can we vote on making the thread about two cantos a day?

[Anonymous No.22115126]

>>22115104
What's stopping you from reading more? I'm reading both Inferno and Purgatorio, which is possible due to the symmetry of the poem both vertically and horizontally. Furthermore the poem warrants rereading after rereading. It's my third go for Inferno

[Anonymous No.22115582]

>>22115126
Me desu

[Anonymous No.22117343]

“… return to your science,
which has it that, in measure of a thing’s perfection,
it feels both more of pleasure and of pain.” -Hollander

Vs


“Remember your philosophy:
the closer a thing comes to its perfection, more keen will be its pleasure or its pain.” -Musa

[Anonymous No.22117467]

>>22110780
I am a pleb with audible credits and got the abridged version, dramatized by the bbc, I like it and idgaf what (you) say.
Although I do like the poetry and will work my way into it by way of reading eventually. I'm going to follow the thread regardless.

[Anonymous No.22117890]

>>22117467
>abridged
>audio book
Jesus

[Anonymous No.22117946]

OP here: sorry I have been so busy

Some questions for you to think about and answer if you can

In Canto VI, Ciacco, after predicting the triumph the rustics (the White Guelphs) and later defeat (by the Black Guelphs), answers Dante about the condition of those he calls worth, the five good men of Florence. Ciacco answers him: they are all in hell and he will encounter all. But only four are named in the rest of the text, Arrigo is never clearly encountered. Why not? It hardly seems like a lapse with all the years of re-reading and writing Dante poured into the poem. Is he someone who is encountered in a subtle way but not named? Is the encounter with him intentionally omitted?

In Canto VII, the sin of Avarice is confronted. But no occupation or class is mentioned except clergy here. Why does Dante not mention any merchants or bankers or corrupt politicians? There is of course a later place specifically for usury but one would think occupations besides cleric would be noted here.

In Canto VIII, Dante encounters Filippo Argenti. According to many early commentators (those who wrote shortly after Dante), Boccaccino was the one who seized Dante's property when his exile was declared. Is that the reason Dante's character here shows a sudden and total hostility whereas he would normally showed some pity? If so, why is this sin against Dante is not even talked about and the location of the punishment does not accentuate it (since it is not that deep of a level), neither does Virgil's condemnation of Filippo (Virgil indicts him for his arrogance).

[Anonymous No.22118006]

>>22117946
And by talked about I mean in terms of predicative (since the poem though written after Dante's exile, takes place before it) or some associations, since we see earlier Ciacco predicts the victory of Dante's enemies.

[Anonymous No.22118018]

>>22110780
How did Mount Purgatory form?

[Anonymous No.22118157]

>>22118018
Read the book
the pit of hell was formed when lucifer fell and likewise the same amount on landmass was pushed into a mountain on the other side of the planet

[Anonymous No.22118227]

>>22118006
>>22117946
Dante can't place Filippo elsewhere, nor can he in the poem accuse him for the exile because the supposed year is 1300. Furthermore, he must have died before 1300, and as we now know, it was his brother that took Dante's possessions after the exile and it was Filippo's family there opposed the return from exile. So we can conclude that Dante and Filippo were rivals in Florence and that Filippo had died before 1300. Early commentators have for example mentioned that Filippo supposedly had once slapped Dante.

Anyway, the canto also shows (in relation to canto vii) a difference between melancholic anger of VII and rabid wrath of Filippo in VIII but also it shows Dante's righteous anger which is also in the canto praised by Virgil.

Whateve the familiar feuds, Dante must have had personal problem with Filippo that we don't know anymore.

[Anonymous No.22118654]

bump

[Anonymous No.22118813]

>>22118654
dead thread lmao

[Anonymous No.22119284]

>>22118813
ITS NOT DEAD

[Anonymous No.22119319]

>>22118157
I know, but I can't visualize in my head how that worked.

[Anonymous No.22119432]

>>22119319
maybe you are not very smart but I think this might help you

[Anonymous No.22119491]

>>22119432
But when a meteor hits a planet it doesn't make a mound of the same shape on the other side, and how does the earth push through the liquid core without any loss?

[Anonymous No.22119541]

>>22119491
It is Dante's poetic construction. You think he knew in 1300s Italy how Earth worked? In the book, the earth literally escapes from the fall of Lucifer and pushes a mount on the other side of the planet. You'll have to accept Dante's explanation and not rationalize it with today's scientific understanding.

To be honest, the whole of Divine Comedy is Dante's way of saying that rationality can only get you so far.

[Anonymous No.22119592]

>>22119491
>>22119541
Dante’s cosmology is heavily influenced by Ptolemy, Aristotle and the other Greek scientists so look to them for guidance. The different “layers” of Paradise are something Ptolemy wrote of.

[Anonymous No.22119641]

>>22119592
Oh thanks. Just ordered Ptolemy's book Almagest (princeton university), Aristotle De Caeto (hackett), and Plato's Cosmology: The Timaeus of Plato (hackett)

[Anonymous No.22119684]

>>22118157
This is a common misinterpretation.
>the pit of hell was formed when lucifer fell
But this contradicts the inscription of the gates of Inferno.
>Justice incited my sublime Creator;
>Created me divine Omnipotence,
>The highest Wisdom and the primal Love.
>
>Before me there were no created things,
>Only eterne, and I eternal last.
This implies that Hell was already created, by God, before receiving Lucifer.
Additionally, the lines in Inferno XXXIV, which describes Satan's fall:
>Upon this side he fell down out of heaven;
>And all the land, that whilom here emerged,
>For fear of him made of the sea a veil,
>
>And came to our hemisphere; and peradventure
>To flee from him, what on this side appears
>Left the place vacant here, and back recoiled.
There are three clauses here, separated by semicolons. In the first, "this side" is stated after Dante and Virgil have passed through the center of the earth, so "this side" refers to the southern hemisphere and not the hemisphere containing Hell. In Dante's time, the southern hemisphere was thought to be one giant ocean, and here, in the second clause, Virgil is explaining that there used to be continents in the southern hemisphere (whilom meaning previously, emerged meaning above the water) went underwater and came to the northern hemisphere. The third clause refers to underground earth that previously occupied the hollow chamber where Dante and Virgil are currently in, fleeing from Satan, forming the Mountain of Purgatory.
Source: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/0014585818812410

[Anonymous No.22119793]

>>22119684
Thanks for that. I had already made a fool of myself

[Anonymous No.22119861]

>>22117946
Dante's reaction to Filippo seems like pure rage to me.

And I: ‘Master, I would be most eager
to see him pushed deep down into this soup
before we leave the lake.’

And he to me: ‘Before the shore
comes into view you’ll have your satisfaction.
Your wish deserves to be fulfilled.’

Soon I watched him get so torn to pieces
by the muddy crew, I still give praise
and thanks to God for it.

That seems like a very vengeful reaction. Is that not a sin? Is Dante allowed to sin against the damned?

[Anonymous No.22119906]

>>22119861
See >>22118227

[Anonymous No.22119910]

>>22119861
Dante the pilgrim is flawed (and does indeed sin) but is learning as he goes on his journey to heaven. One example: in canto 6 Dante asks Ciacco kind of gossipy questions, while the level of hell is gluttons. This sin being a lesson that gluttony is not only of the flesh, but the head, i.e. gluttony of knowledge, wanting to know things that serve you no higher purpose.

[Anonymous No.22120172]

They fought each other, not with hands alone, but struck with head and chest and feet as well, with teeth they tore each other limb from limb

I just finished watching attack on titans and this reminded me of the first seasons titans

[Anonymous No.22120322]

>>22119861
Within Inferno it is clear that pitying the damned is what is wrong and hating them is considered correct. Abusing the damned would not be considered a sin by Dante anymore than abusing the devil, and pitying the damned is just as iffy as pitying the devil. The idea is the forgiveness of God is limitless in life so one is supposed to imitate that but is gone after damnation and so Dante’s is supposed to be too. Dante is supposed to be flawed for his scenes of pity and love for the damned

[Anonymous No.22120551]

>>22120322
I understand, but just felt Dante was too cruel in this one. Probably because he really hated this man irl.

[Anonymous No.22120592]

>>22120551
The man was approaching Dante for a confrontation. Early commentators said the reference to “one who weeps” means someone who wants to take revenge on someone else but is too weak to. That is, he recognizes Dante and is crying with rage

[Anonymous No.22121206]

Good morning fellow pilgrims. I'll be reading Canto IX today, essentially stepping inside the dolorous city of Dis.

[Anonymous No.22121326]

Cantos IX of purgatory and Inferno are both ones of transition. In one Dante enters the gates if Dis, in other he enters the Purgatory proper. In both cantos an angel comes to assist Dante, in both cantos Dante first feels fear and doubt but is reassures by Virgil. Additionally, in both Cantos, Dante directly addresses the reader about this verse. It would be interesting to see what people think Dante means with that after Virgil hides his eyes from Gorgon.

>Inferno IX:

O ye who have undistempered intellects,
Observe the doctrine that conceals itself
Beneath the veil of the mysterious verses!

>Purgatorio IX:

Reader, thou seest well how I exalt
My theme, and therefore if with greater art
I fortify it, marvel not thereat.

[Anonymous No.22121521]

Here is your question for Canto IX

To protect him from Medusa, Virgil orders Dante to turn around and shut his eyes. Dante then covers his eyes as well, and Virgil then covers Dante’s hands with his own. Dante then tells the reader that there is a secret doctrine (“dottrina che s’ascodne”, line 62) in these verses for those with a sound intellect. What is the doctrine?

[Anonymous No.22121667]

>>22121521
It is Dante's covert way of saying that what he had just said should be read as an allegory; the reader should see the meaning under the words and not take the words just said as granted. As a poet's allegory, that which is said—the literal sense—is a fable, fiction. Dante is here seen as being harassed by three Furies that forbid his entrance to Dis and they threaten that they'll call Medusa to turn him into stone—a moment of fear and doubt on part of the pilgrim, who is then saved reassured by Virgil, who tells Dante that he has already went this way once before; he knows the way. Of course we could also mention here Ovid, Metamorphoses, Theseus, and the other Greek mythological underpinnings that surround these terzas, or that the angel that comes after the address to the reader can be read as Mercury. One can also bring up the story of Alipius from Confessions (a book Dante was very familiar with) and reflect that on Canto IX to mean that it is the story of temptation which he (Dante) can't resist (watching Medusa); Dante discusses here the failure of his will—something that has once happened to him before, might happen to him again here. The story can thus be read as a kind of confession; why else would he share something so private and secret from his life to us, the readers? Dante might have thought that no private experience is so irrevocable that it shouldn't be shared as a confession. It might also be reflected on Canto IX of Purgatory where Dante has a dream about being take into fiery blaze so in a way Dante ponders his own sins both here before the gates of Dis and also before entering the Purgatory.
For those more inclined to dig in, I suggest you find out about the connection of this Medusa allegory (threat of petrification) and Dante's series of poems (Rime Petrose) about "Donna Petra" (can be read as lady of stone, a memory of his past that he is now encountering again in Hell) A question of misdirected love. https://www.jstor.org/stable/458541?seq=2

[Anonymous No.22122053]

>midway upon the journey of our lives
gtfo pseudente

[Anonymous No.22122860]

Canto X tomorrow!

[Anonymous No.22122877]

I gave my grandma The Divine Comedy (tr Mandelbaum) the other day. She gave it back because she didn't like days descriptions of hell and had trouble following the poetry.

[Anonymous No.22122915]

>>22122877
>Filtered

[Anonymous No.22124386]

Get to reading Canto X everyone

[Anonymous No.22125523]

>>22110841
It's really beautiful, great poetry you can appreciate even in translation, and its message of a soul seeking for something transcendently lovely has proven to resonate with readers for 800 years. It's good book.

[Anonymous No.22125599]

>>22110841
As Eliot put it:
Dante and Shakespeare divide the modern world between them; there is no third.

[Anonymous No.22125919]

>>22124386
I read it. I am waiting for OP to write something.

[Anonymous No.22125933]

>>22125919
he won't, but I can if you ask nicely

[Anonymous No.22126078]

So the Epicureans are there because they didn't believe in an immortal soul. Do they believe in one now?

[Anonymous No.22126317]

>>22126078
>So the Epicureans are there because they didn't believe in an immortal soul.
Yes. You have basically two types of Epicureans in the Sixth circle of hell. You have those who values bodily senses the most and the intellectual ones; their common denominator was that they believed that their souls are not immortal, hence their judgement is that they lay in burning graves awaiting for the final judgment when their deaths will be final.

>Do they believe in one now?
Those in Hell, I guess but it makes no difference anymore.

>What about the Italians Dante meets?
Dante meets two Italian, one a Ghibelline (faction that was Dante's enemy), one a Guelf (Dante's faction). Dante puts them both in the sixth circle for Averroism (basically 14th century atheist belief based on the works of Averros; he is the "Great Commentator" Dante mentions in Limbo). The Ghibelline man exchanges some words with Dante about the fight between the factions until they are interrupted by the Guelf, who is also the father of Dante's previous best friend Guido. The father asks (thinking Guido would be guiding [play with pun here] Dante through Hell, if not then by Dante's own intellect) who guides him and Dante points to Virgil (Guido didn't appreciate Virgil). I guess it would be noteworthy to mention that the Ghibelline man married the daughter of the Guelf father and now they rest in their graves not talking to each other. It is not until Dante erroneously says something about Guido to his father in past tense that the father makes the assumption that Guido is already dead; then the father returns to the grave. Then the Ghibelline continues the discussion with Dante, giving ominous prophecy about Dante's upcoming hardships in Florence (being exiled). I guess it should be noted here that Dante himself had to exile Guido from Florence at one point and may her present some type of sorrow for it.

>Anything else to the Canto?
It is very much about pride, and can be read together with Canto X of Purgatorio. Epicureans have the pride of intellect. The Italian men have the pride of family, being only concerned about their family. Where here we don't see any repentace from sinners about their pride, the souls in purgatory will tell tales of pride and humility.
Also in the Canto, it becomes clear to Dante that souls in Hell cant see the present but only far to the past and the future and that is why they can give him prophecies and are interested to hear about the current affairs.

[Anonymous No.22126324]

>>22126078
>>22126317
Sorry for the long post. You might also be interested in this lecture about the Canto, I have included the timestamp https://youtu.be/LXroNUQluco?t=1793

[Anonymous No.22126339]

Which Diogenes is in Limbo? Because I saw La Vita Nuova listed as Menippean/Cynic satire, and if that's true then I imagine it could be Diogenes the Cynic. How much did Cynic philosophers like Diogenes influence Dante?

[Anonymous No.22126360]

how did 10 year olds get that authentic filthy, nicotine-stained finger look?

[Anonymous No.22126370]

>>22126339
They might be the pre socratic ones. The same question could be asked of Zeno.

[Anonymous No.22126701]

>>22121521
Is the hidden meaning Jesus coming down to hell, walking on the water?