/clg/ - Classical Languages General

[Anonymous No.22957098]

Graeco-Bactrian edition

>τὸ πρότερον νῆμα·
>>22941474

NOTE: replace ' dot ' with an actual dot to access the links below
>Μέγα τὸ Ἑλληνιστί/Ῥωμαϊστί·
https://mega dot nz/folder/FHdXFZ4A#mWgaKv4SeG-2Rx7iMZ6EKw

>Mέγα τὸ ANE
https://mega dot nz/folder/YfsmFRxA#pz58Q6aTDkwn9Ot6G68NRg

Feel free to write your thoughts/stories/etc... in your target language.

>Work in progress FAQ
https://rentry dot co/n8nrko
You are very welcome to suggest additions/changes/etc... especially for other classical languages

[Anonymous No.22957155]

i'm thinking of learning akkadian, just for fun.

[Anonymous No.22957157]

What are the most beautiful Chinese poems? How does the ambiguity of the language aid its poetic beauty? Can someone explain, or maybe point me to somewhere that does?

[Anonymous No.22957180]

>>22955515
>is that because the later Buddhist literature is less interesting or for some other reason?
I did not learn Pāli out of scholastic or literary interest. I'm not interested in any later tradition etc. simply because they're wrong. I'm not going to argue the point or anything, though. If you're interested, read Ñāņavīra's book (CtP) and/or watch Ñāņamoli Thero's youtube video's at "Hillside Hermitage". To be clear, if you're not interested, that's okay too. I have no desire to be unnecessarily abrasive.

>It seems a bit odd to learn an entire language and not put the minuscule effort to read a script that most of the native literature is written in.
There is no "native literature". Pāli is a literary register of middle Indo-Aryan specifically designed for the sake of preserving the early suttas and vinaya by serving to unite the orally transmitted texts that had drifted into various dialects. In other places, Sanskrit or other varyingly Sanskritized Prakrits were used for this purpose. Pāli is the one that survived as host to an as complete as could be expected collection of the early texts. This is corroborated by linguistic/text comparison methods and various archaeological findings (I'm anticipating the other anon I'll also reply to here).
To directly address your point: Yes, it would be. However, everything I'm interested in is in Latin script in a dozen different places on the internet and in print. I have no idea where one would even find anything written in Pāli in a different script. Like I said earlier, I've never really encountered it. The script situation with Pāli is not analogous to that of Sanskrit at all.
I think even the commentaries, Visuddhimagga and whatnot can more easily be accessed in Latin script than in any other. Even the rather old-school white Theravādī-ordained monks (50s, 60s), of which Ñāņavīra is one, did not know any Indic script, as far as I know. Even then, monasteries catering to western monks carried the full library of Pali Text Society books (i.e. in Latin script). I have the four Nikāyas in print myself, though not PTS because they're far too expensive, and it is in Latin script. Again, in my attempt to locate suttas in the original language I did not once come across anything in another script.
To come back to your first question, the monk (Ñāņamoli Thera, but not the one whose youtube I mentioned above; names get recycled) who translated the Visuddhimagga to English, which was apparently a Herculean task and widely lauded, translated it out of pure linguistic indulgence; he started out just wanting to find out whether it was useful or not. In the process, he found that it was not at all useful, and very much disliked the text. Yet, since he completed the painstakingly high quality translation, it must be assumed that the text is at least linguistically pleasant. Scholarly distractions were his main vice, after all.
(accidentally dropped this in dead thread)

[Anonymous No.22957221]

>>22957180
>I have no idea where one would even find anything written in Pāli in a different script.
Are print editions in Brahmic script-using countries not simply in the local script?

[Anonymous No.22957227]

Smfh should have been 困而不學 edition

[Anonymous No.22957235]

>>22956156
>What's the reason for your prejudice against Sanskrit?
I have none. Nice language.

>You do realize that the Buddha's prohibition of Sanskrit translation could be a much later attribution, right?
There's no reason to assume this, and the same could be said for anything (I addressed this in my other post as well, although I failed to quote you because it was getting too long).
The actual wording is not as arbitrary as "specifically not in Sanskrit". The monk is a Brahmin and asks whether, because of the many dialects that were already at that time spreading the texts around, he could put it in "chanda". This word refers to Sanskrit meter specifically. It must also be remembered that the Buddha lived either just before or contemporary with Pāņini, which means that Classical Sanskrit wasn't standardized yet. The text implies that translation to "chanda" would not be good because the suttas are not meant to simply be venerated like the Vedas were, but to be put in practice and pondered on actively. Compiling the texts in a language that was at that time only used for preserving centuries old texts, that could not be readily understood anymore, does not make any sense.
I could argue that translating/transcribing (hardly a translation if you can use exactly the same words) the suttas into Sanskrit later on was a good decision because it became a lingua franca of sorts.
Ironically though, no collection of the early suttas survived in Sanskrit, despite the fact that we have tomes and tomes of Classical Chinese translations of Sanskrit early suttas (although they're mostly mixed with later texts, unfortunately).
I do think it would be interesting to find out whether this vinaya rule has Classical Chinese analogues, as they often do (would be hilariously ironic of a text translated from Sanskrit). The text sharply and specifically rebuking "innovators" who'd produce "new suttas" also, hilariously, survived the trip to Chinese, despite the fact that the Chinese translator, who made the trip to India to gather those texts (I think he wanted to compare the different extant vinayas) was a Mahāyānist surrounded by Mahāyānists and got them from overwhelmingly Mahāyānist India.

[Anonymous No.22957238]

>>22957157
Instead of a necessarily incomplete answer here, I recommend you acquire a PDF copy of this book and read any given chapter. Cai is highly erudite both in Chinese and Greek and chooses excellent collaborators. Every gloss and translation in this book is a gem. You will get more out of it with some Chinese, but even without there's hardly a better source.

[Anonymous No.22957246]

>>22957221
That sounds probable, yes. I'm not anywhere near any of those, though.
Furthermore, none of those scripts have any sort of additional legitimacy or dominance like Devanāgarī has in Sanskrit. They're all just local renderings, all on the same footing. Makes me wonder whether anyone has made a Cyrillic transcription method. I doubt there's the interest for it, though.

[Anonymous No.22957249]

>>22957227
idk what this means friend or what image it should relate, maybe next one if you can be more precise

[Anonymous No.22957256]

>>22957157
Another book recommendation for an afternoon's reading. This book can comfortably be read in under an hour. It doesn't assume any Chinese, but one Spanish and two French translations are included iirc. The poem being discussed is 鹿柴/Deer Park, a traditional pick for first Classical Chinese poem: it's even the first complete poem in Barnes' volume. It's an extremely simple nature poem exhibiting Wang Wei's signature quality of 時中有畫/"painting-in-a-poem," but the tenseless aspect lends a quality that makes even it maddeningly hard to translate.

[Anonymous No.22957259]

>>22957249
"Confused yet not studying," a quote from Confucius. Someone posted it last thread

[Anonymous No.22957264]

>>22957157
One of my favorites is 乙卯正月二十日夜記夢, it's absolutely heartrending. There's also 夜雨寄北 which is meaningful to me personally because my then-boyfriend shared it with me when we were waiting to see each other again. (Don't worry, despite the 'then-', we're still on friendly terms even if we're not dating anymore. He just wasn't emotionally ready for a relationship.) I also like 水調歌頭 quite a bit, especially in Teresa Teng's sung rendition (though I honestly prefer Faye Wong's cover), and I also like 將進酒, especially as set to its traditional melody in Hokkien.

[Anonymous No.22957285]

>>22954887
This is so delightfully alien, honestly.
With how differently those several PhD students translated the very simple title, though, can you ever really be sure you've understood? It seems like the in-built ambiguity, while very nice for poems, would be absolutely fatal in something necessarily exact like logic or science. I've downloaded the books you recommended yesterday, but I haven't read any of it yet.

[Anonymous No.22957457]

>>22957285
I'm glad you enjoyed those posts. Language Log in general and Victor Mair specifically are delights to read and recommendations for everyone in this thread.
Piercingly clear Classical Chinese is possible. Han Feizi, the legalist philosopher, is an increasingly common introductory text for this quality, although I find it sort of like using Plato as an introduction to Greek: clear language and difficult subject matter does not the ideal introduction make. There do exist mathematical and scientific texts that are mind bogglingly vague, but then the same is true for other classical languages, as such texts were effectively lecture notes. I will say that the vague, allusive quality of the language increases over time, such that the clearest texts are often classics and classicizers such as Han Yu.

[Anonymous No.22957471]

>>22957285
It's also worth noting that, contrary to oft-repeated truisms, China did develop a tradition of logic in the School of Names and somewhat in Mohism. Both were suppressed traditions, but Mozi writes extremely clear, plain Classical Chinese. It's almost jarring to read, and even a little ugly imo.

[Anonymous No.22957609]

Ñāṇavīra Thera is the name of the western monk I looked for. All i remember was that he ran in circle for several years, then he said he reached stream entry and then committed suicide. What a ride.
I think he wrote his memoir too. But did he explain his suicide?

[Anonymous No.22957623]

>>22957235
It's kind of weird that the Buddha talks about writing. This means the monks were already interested in writing stuff about buddhism, ie mostly what the budhha says and does. Is there any mention of writing in the suttas and vinaya ?

[Anonymous No.22957895]

Is playing through a dialogue heavy game (that allows you to pause on every line) and translating each sentence into the language of choice as you play a good idea?

[Anonymous No.22957917]

>>22957895
Stop coming up with excuses to play video games, anon.

[Anonymous No.22957924]

>>22957895
nah, too cumbersome
maybe if there was already a good translation of the dialogues it could be a good idea since you'd get both heavy repetition of common words as well as seeing them with contextual clues, kinda like an interactive LLPSI-ish experience

[Anonymous No.22957927]

>>22957895
No.

[Anonymous No.22957935]

>>22957924
There's at least a handful of Latin translations on romhacking.net
https://www.romhacking.net/?page=translations&status=&platform=&languageid=20&order=&perpage=20&dir=&title=&transsearch=Go
There's also some in Hebrew and Arabic- the modern forms, but modern standard Arabic especially is pretty close to classical Arabic.

[Anonymous No.22957997]

>>22957895
I don't really get the point of doing something like this. Classical languages are for classical texts. It seems really strange not just to read or look for things to read. In this case it's evident that you're asking us permission to indulge in a vice, but even things like Latin Harry Potter bother me.

[Anonymous No.22958006]

>>22957235
Thank you for your reply. I had a professor, although she was quite retarded, who specialized in Chinese and Japanese, and she talked about Sanskrit being known all the way in Japan for the purpose of preserving Buddhist texts. Was Pali also known? Why Sanskrit if there is a problem with it within Buddhism?
I looked into the Latin character transcription thing. I didn't find any clear explanations, but I think I know the reason. The Pali Text Society wanted the study of Pali to be as approachable as possible. Doing it in native script is less approachable. Plus, when the Pali Text Society was founded, making movable type characters in a syllabic script was hard. I can tell you that in the early 30's, De Gruyter was publishing Syriac texts in square script (the one used for Hebrew and Jewish languages).

[Anonymous No.22958009]

>>22957917
>>22957924
>>22957927
>>22957935
>>22957997
The idea would be to get some practice in conversational greek/latin/whatever other language, by using the dialogue as a way to prompt many and various likely common sentences that would occur in real life

[Anonymous No.22958086]

>>22958009
Translate from a script then if that's what you're going for. Translate a Tennessee Williams play or something, I don't know

[Anonymous No.22958091]

>>22957997
The idea that Latin is only for reading ancient texts and not producing anything new in is a pretty recent one- people up through the 1800s were writing in Latin, and a few people still do.

[Anonymous No.22958094]

>>22958009
Sounds extremely dull. I would rather just shitpost in that language in here, where there's at least a chance that someone will correct your mistakes.

[Anonymous No.22958159]

>>22957457
>>22957471
Alright, so basically, you can very well be exact, but it's a quality that is not very highly sought after? i.e. the vague nature of it is generally employed by writers as a tool rather than being an accidental feature of sorts?
It's interesting that China has produced a number of rather mystical traditions that are based on their vagueness (as we in the west know from the whole funny Zen/Chan stories subgenre), seeing as even the language of choice itself seems to be geared towards that.

>>22957609
Yes, Clearing the Path is a compilation consisting of both the book he himself wrote and the various correspondences by mail he maintained with various people. His suicide features heavily. I could not recommend it more.
If you were to want more of this (highly radical texts written by actual ariyasāvakā) I would also recommend "Meanings" by Ñāņamoli Thero, the monk whose youtube channel I mentioned in the last thread. That book, like CtP, could turn your life upside-down if you read it correctly. He's one of the head honchos at the publisher that published Ñāņavīra and he is kind of the inheritor of his tradition, if you could very ironically consider him to have had one at all.

[Anonymous No.22958205]

>>22957623
Well, what I was talking about would not exactly be writing, since it's translating an orally drilled corpus into, I presume, a similarly oral form in a different register of language. The Sanskrit texts, upanishads etc. were also passed down orally.
The Theragāthā and Therīgāthā are poems by monks that lived while the Buddha was still around, so I suppose that counts as individual monks already composing some stuff of their own, but these were also composed and originally transmitted orally, only to be written down several centuries, probably around half a millennium later.
Nevertheless, the early texts do mention writing (some form of "lekha", I believe). It seems to have been regarded as a profession of sorts, I guess like a scribe. I guess that would make sense based on how writing is believed to have been adopted -- first as something to record rather boring economical facts of life. The brahmins in the suttas often bring up their various, variegated fields of study and the stuff they memorize, but they never do mention writing.
captcha: 2YSAD

[Anonymous No.22958333]

>>22957609
>>22958159
By the way, what did you mean by "ran in circle for several years"? He happened to be rather cynically opposed to physical exercise, and I don't think he would've been running anywhere.

>>22958006
Sanskrit went with the schools that ended up being dominant in the north, such as the Mahāsanghika (I might be getting the names slightly wrong, it's been several years), Sarvāstivadins, and such. They ended up adopting Mahāyāna, and that's what spread from the Silk Road to China, and from China to Japan and Korea. The even later Mahāyāna that developed, which we generally distinguish as Vajrayāna, was transmitted directly from early medieval northern India to Tibet centuries later.
The Theravādins used to also have a foothold in mainland India, but anyway at some point they ended up transmitting their tradition to Burma from Sri Lanka, and over time that spread to south-east Asia in general.
Those areas touched by the Theravādins ended up being influenced by Pāli, and many of those languages still use vocabulary taken from it.
Even now, Mahāyāna chants and mantras are in Sanskrit in places like Japan and Tibet. Theravāda countries don't really have an equivalent to that. I think the closest thing would be certain set phrases and sentences often used in interactions with monks, since proper alms-based monasticism was maintained by the more conservative Theravāda, which means that people have more everyday interaction with it.

>Why Sanskrit if there is a problem with it within Buddhism?
Good question. I think the most likely answer is simply the fact that Sanskrit became such an unavoidable cultural juggernaut, and since they ran into the issue of having to write the dialectical oral tradition down, they ended up opting for it. The fact that other literary registers were even developed at all does imply that there was significant resistance to it at some point.
I mean, monks even rather widely started using money in many places, even owning slaves. The entire set-up monks have in China and Japan is entirely against the vinaya, without any ambiguity at all. Even in Theravāda countries, monks using money is a very wide-spread thing. All in all, I think using Sanskrit would be a very minor issue, if at all one.

>I think I know the reason. The Pali Text Society
Yes, I think so too. PTS has had a very powerful influence on the Pāli scene in general.

[Anonymous No.22958614]

Διογένης ὁ Κυνικὸς φιλόσοφος ἰδὼν
μειράκιον ἐκ μοιχοῦ λίθους βάλλον,
"Παῦσαι," ἔφη, "παιδίον, μὴ ἀγνοοῦν
παίσῃς τὸν πατέρα."

Diogenēs Cynicus philosophus, quum vīdisset
adulēscentem, fīlium mœchī, saxa jacentem, dīxit, "dēsine puer! nē īnsciēns patrem pulsēs."

[Anonymous No.22958620]

Διογένης ὁ Κυνικὸς φιλόσοφος ἰδὼν
μειράκιον ἐκ μοιχοῦ λίθους βάλλον,
"Παῦσαι," ἔφη, "παιδίον, μὴ ἀγνοοῦν
παίσῃς τὸν πατέρα."

Diogenēs Cynicus philosophus, quum vīdisset
adulēscentem, fīlium mœchæ, saxa jacentem, dīxit, "dēsine puer! nē īnsciēns patrem pulsēs."

[Anonymous No.22958656]

May you post that article about reconstructed Latin pronunciation from XIX century that quotes a Roman grammarian? It was posted ITT several threads ago.
IIRC, the grammarian said there are no more lax short /i/ and /u/ and only /e/ and /o/ change their quality, then why are the former used in Wiki? Only because of inscriptions?

[Anonymous No.22958723]

I wish there were an anime adaptation of Anabasis. Maybe a Greek TV drama of The Tale of Genji too

[Anonymous No.22958741]

>>22958723
>anime adaptation of Anabasis.
Pick up the pen and make your own.
>a Greek TV drama of The Tale of Genji too
There's probably several Japanese ones.

[Anonymous No.22958769]

>>22958741
I can't draw and I can't enjoy Genji without Stavros Halkias in it

[Anonymous No.22959114]

I'm drilling vocab based on a book someone recommended on here a month or so ago that's the top ~1500 Latin words in order of frequency. It's been fascinating to see what words clump together in frequency/how relevant certain concepts are to the surviving texts of the language. I don't recommend it unless you're at least somewhat capable of understanding the language but it adds some fun to dry vocab drills.

[Anonymous No.22959503]

>>22958620
heheheh

[Anonymous No.22959620]

what do you use for an ancient greek keyboard on phone? im using modern but it doesn't have any of the accents

[Anonymous No.22959727]

>>22957246
>>22957180
The dominant script besides Latin is Sinhala, given that the Pali Canon survives to us primarily in Sri Lanka and it's historically been the center for Theravada studies, especially for Westerners. The people you mention, like Nanavira, were almost certainly familiar with at least some Sinhala given how they studied Buddhism in Sri Lanka.
Having doctrinal disputes with mainstream Theravada is perfectly reasonable, although I truly don't understand the point of learning the language if you don't seem that interested in it and the doctrinal developments. Unless there's some Western school of Buddhism that's distinct from Eastern Buddhism that I've not heard of.
Also, regarding Pali, there is actually a decent amount of literature and commentary originally written in Pali. For a time, it was used analogously to Latin in medieval Europe. Although, it was eventually displaced primarily by classical Sinhala in Sri Lanka and dialects of Sanskrit elsewhere.

[Anonymous No.22959905]

>>22959620
lsj.gr and copypaste. Sorry anon

[Anonymous No.22959957]

>>22959620
Hoplite polytonic greek keyboard
ἀἁάὰᾶᾱᾳᾇᾆϲϙϝϛϟϡϻͷͳͱϸͻϵͼϐϏ

[Anonymous No.22960134]

>>22958769
I was listening to an interview where someone says the word Genji (Overwatch Esports) just as I see the word in your post. It was a very interesting synchronicity.

[Anonymous No.22960171]

I'm interested in learning Sogdian views on Manichaeism, does anyone have good resources on this?

[Anonymous No.22960256]

>>22960171
I don't, but I will ask a Manichaean expert tomorrow.

[Anonymous No.22960319]

>>22958620
Why does he insult some stranger for no reason

[Anonymous No.22960354]

>>22958656
bump

[Anonymous No.22960407]

>>22959957
how do i get it to work

[Anonymous No.22960442]

>>22960171
I found this article:
Religious Diversity among Sogdian Merchants in Sixth-Century China: Zoroastrianism, Buddhism, Manichaeism, and Hinduism

[Anonymous No.22960476]

>>22959620
There's an ancient Greek keyboard app on iphone. It's just slightly glitchy but should do the job

I myself have still not found a solution for inputting the full set of IAST diacritics on mobile

[Anonymous No.22960570]

>>22959620
I second Hoplite Polytonic, ἀνῶν

>>22959727
>Nanavira, were almost certainly familiar with at least some Sinhala given how they studied Buddhism in Sri Lanka.
Nāņavīra was not even capable of making clear to children that he was not giving them things to keep. He knew "some" Sinhala in the same sense as I know "some" Spanish. See picrel.
Furthermore, Ñāņavīra ordained and studied in the Island Hermitage, specifically set up by a German Jew for western monks. The common languages used there were German and English. Another writer from this period I know, Bodhesako, makes clear that even the Sinhalese there spoke English.

>Having doctrinal disputes with mainstream Theravada is perfectly reasonable, although I truly don't understand the point of learning the language if you don't seem that interested in it and the doctrinal developments
The idea of even tolerating "doctrinal developments", let alone being actively interested in them, would be incomprehensible to someone versed in the early suttas. In fact, even traditional Theravādins would fight you every step of the way if you were to say they innovated anything. In fact, even early Mahāyānist writers pretended they hadn't. You might not be able to sympathize with this point simply because you yourself don't have skin in the game, so to speak. The whole point of it is to ponder the texts the Buddha consciously left behind to give us a chance to understand and be free. He spits venom against any "doctrinal development". One of the Classical Chinese analogues of that sutta even orders people to rebuke and censure anyone who deviates from the passed down oral tradition (sutta and vinaya).
I learned the language because the texts have many subtleties and they cannot be trusted to be translated by a puthujjana, in any case. It would be a handicap, potentially a severe one, not to know the original language, as the translator may have accidentally filtered out the hints to exactly what the Buddha was attempting to convey.

>Also, regarding Pali, there is actually a decent amount of literature and commentary originally written in Pali
Yes, I know. I'll post another screencap of a relevant Ñāņavīra quote in response to this.

[Anonymous No.22960608]

learning greek vocab based on reading texts is so out of wack. I know the greek word for supplication (i don't even know what this means in english) but i don't know the greek word for water.

[Anonymous No.22960617]

>>22959727
>>22960570
Pic related.
This is right at the start of his book. Every single ctrl+f "commentaries" after that includes at least some degree of disregard or joke.
Western monks, in general, have mostly not found the commentarial tradition or Visuddhimagga to their liking. I mentioned the fellow who translated it in the last thread (I would quote him also, but it appears Path Press has limited access to the in-browser version of Seeking the Path, and I don't have it in print). Traditional Theravāda countries venerate these texts in a religious sense, and they're therefore not very concerned about how useful they actually are. A teacher of Ñāņavīra once mentioned that "nobody has ever become Arahā by listening to the books of the Abhidhamma", which left him to wonder what the point of them would even be in that case. The question seems not to arise for most Sinhalese, proud as they are of their heritage.
Ajahn Chah, if I recall correctly (I read his biography once), despite being in a very much traditional cultural context in 1950s Thailand, also didn't find any use in the Visuddhimagga when he got his hands on it. The fact that the commentaries, as far as I know, haven't even been translated at all speaks volumes of their unpalatability to westerners.
The relevant westerners to whom I refer also wouldn't care very much about "schools", and wouldn't ever produce one. The idea of keeping orthodoxy within a group is fundamentally impossible in this context, because an individual either understands, becoming ariya, or doesn't, which means he doesn't understand regardless of what group identity he describes to. The idea of schools, groups and cliques is frankly anathema to the spirit of the early texts (I have no doubt the notion itself would be considered schismatic). When the Buddha was alive, it was just implicitly understood that, if you understood, you wouldn't need to develop interpretations or differentiate doctrines, and if you didn't, you wouldn't pretend your opinion matters in the first place. Obviously, after his passing, the amount of people who understood was diluted continuously, as he said it would, until people who didn't understand became the overwhelming majority, as he said they would. The idea that anyone would trust any mainstream school nowadays is especially ludicrous given the fact that the Buddha gave about 500 years for this process to play out.

[Anonymous No.22960629]

>>22960608
ὕδωρ, think "hydro". I may be vandalizing the accent here.
I get what you mean, though. Enjoy explaining to normalfags that, despite "knowing" Ancient Greek, you can't tell them how to say hello in the language.

[Anonymous No.22960717]

>>22960629
Instead of "hello" try "seek to supplicate".

[Anonymous No.22960748]

>>22958656
bump

[Anonymous No.22960756]

>>22960570
>I learned the language because the texts have many subtleties
What are those subtleties ?

[Anonymous No.22960825]

>>22960748
Anons wtf just say me who's this grammarian.

[Anonymous No.22960909]

>>22960825
was it this one? https://www.gutenberg.org/files/7528/7528-h/7528-h.htm

[Anonymous No.22961017]

>>22960756
(1/2)
I can name some examples of particularly hard to translate concepts, although you do have to note that they're hard to translate not due to lexical or etymological obscurity but because what they're actually concretely pointing at is subtle.
The issue with translation, therefore, is that it imprints what the translator thought the term *means* on the text, rather than simply translating the word as such. This works very well for literature in general, but it does not work for a body of texts that outright says normal people are incapable of understanding it (understanding makes you non-normal) and threatens you with hell if you presume to teach it without having understood. Not once, but many times.
The most autistically literal, etymological translations are therefore best, especially if it turns out like a word that doesn't look natural or remind you too much of something you already know, so as not to give the illusion that the reader already understand what it actually means. This is the form in which the Buddha tends to christen these terms to begin with.
Anyway, I'll provide some examples:
>sankhāra, literally "together-make(r)"
(Definition:) ("Determination" is Ñāņavīra's translation)
And what, monks, do you say are determinations? ‘They determine
the determined’: that, monks, is why they are called ‘determinations’. And what is the determined that they determine?
Matter as matter is the determined that they determine,
Feeling as feeling is the determined that they determine,
Perception as perception is the determined that they determine,
Determinations as determinations are the determined that they
determine,
Consciousness as consciousness is the determined that they
determine.
‘They determine the determined’: that indeed, monks, is why they are
called ‘determinations’.
("they make-together the made-together, that is why they are called "together-makers", etc.)
Now, mainstream translations: Sujāto "choices", Bodhi "volitional formations".
I'll attach a screencap of what Ñāņavīra says this means.
>upadhi (upon-bearing, i.e. fundament)
Sujāto translates as "attachment", clearly indicating the presumption of understanding what exactly is being spoken of despite the fact that the Buddha intentionally leaves it vague.
>upādāna (taking up, ven. Ñāņamoli Thero translates as "assumption", with which I would concur)
Generally translated as "grasping" or "holding".
>Nāmarūpa (name-[&]-form)
Sujāto translates this fine as "name and form", but Bodhi follows the commentarial interpretation and translates it as "mind and body", which totally breaks every single passage in which it or an analogue of it occurs, which breaks like a good 30% of the suttas if not more.
To go deeper on this one:

[Anonymous No.22961033]

>>22960756
>>22961017
(2/2)
>>22960756
To go deeper on this one:
>rūpa (form -- I consider both "form" or "matter" to be acceptable, depending on the context). If you translate this at all, you break the definition passage irreparably:
(Original, I will provide the autistic word context:)
>Kiñca, bhikkhave, rūpaṁ vadetha? Ruppatīti kho, bhikkhave, tasmā ‘rūpan’ti vuccati. Kena ruppati? Sītenapi ruppati, uṇhenapi ruppati, jighacchāyapi ruppati, pipāsāyapi ruppati, ḍaṁsamakasavātātapasarīsapasamphassenapi ruppati. Ruppatīti kho, bhikkhave, tasmā ‘rūpan’ti vuccati.

"Why, monks, would one call it form? "It forms" (also, "it is ruined", this is a word-play), hence "form", it is said. By what is it formed (ruined), etc.?
The implication is that rūpa is *by nature* something that is ruined/comes to ruin, in fact, it IS the "coming-to-ruin" of the phenomenon. It is not "by something else", even where it says "by etc. etc." it is meant that this is an inextricable quality of rūpa itself, it is what it is, it is what it does. By translating this, even with the best intentions, the core element of this is lost.
Just as in the passage defining determinations/sankhārā above, the point of the definition-string is to equate the word to what it does, hence defining it (this is also why the determinations passage loops back on itself; this is so essential, it is the only definition of this sort in the texts, and without understanding the language or at least having one of the more autistic translations, the logical loop is entirely lost.)
(Bodhi:)
>“And why, bhikkhus, do you call it form? ‘It is deformed,’ bhikkhus, therefore it is called form. Deformed by what? Deformed by cold, deformed by heat, deformed by hunger, deformed by thirst, deformed by contact with flies, mosquitoes, wind, sun, and serpents. ‘It is deformed,’ bhikkhus, therefore it is called form."
Picrel is Ñāņavīra on "determinations", the footnote is to the passage I quoted. The necessity of the logical loop is well illustrated.
I personally would go even more autistically literal and translate it for myself as "Determinations as to their determination-ness are the determined that they determine", because it carries the abstract noun.

[Anonymous No.22961055]

>>22960717

[Anonymous No.22961056]

>>22957246
https://tipitaka.org/cyrl/
It does actually. I imagine mostly for Buddhists in Mongolia but still a bit amusing.

[Anonymous No.22961162]

>>22960629
Isn't that just χαῖρε?

[Anonymous No.22961168]

>>22960319
because the kid is throwing rocks into the crowd. i messed up my translation "laying - jacentem" instead of "throwing - jacientem"

[Anonymous No.22961203]

>>22960608
https://archive.org/details/vestibulum/page/n3/mode/2up
I heard you needed vocab in a logical yet easy setting.

[Anonymous No.22961306]

>>22961033
okay can skim through those explanations and give your opinion.
The guy who wrote those says understanding the vedic vocabulary is super important to understand buddhism as a rejection of the vedas

4chan says it's spam so i have to use pastebin to give the links
https://pastebin.com/zy1v1mZj

[Anonymous No.22961334]

>>22961017
>Matter as matter
>>22961017
>Feeling as feeling
>>22961017
>Perception as perception
>>22961017
>Determinations as determinations
>>22961017
>Consciousness as consciousness

so what does he mean when the says X as X, like ''feeling as feeling"??

[Anonymous No.22961341]

>>22961033
Can you skim through those explanations and give your opinion.
The guy who wrote those says understanding the vedic vocabulary is very important to understand buddhism as a rejection of the vedas

4chan says it's spam so i have to use pastebin to give the links
https://pastebin.com/zy1v1mZj

[Anonymous No.22961713]

I find devanagari conjuncts so ugly it's unreal

[Anonymous No.22961751]

>>22961341
testing links like this

>about dependent origination (see the big picture at the bottom)
justpaste__it/j5o4
>about samadhi
justpaste__it/5x298
>about ignorance
justpaste__it/p0sk
>about mano
justpaste__it/119gt
>about citta+mano
justpaste__it/rtcu

[Anonymous No.22962425]

>>22961334
(1/2) (I am not skilled in conciseness)
It is a shorthand. It refers back to what came before in the same pattern:
"They determine the determined,
and what is the determined that they determine?
Matter as matter ("as to its matter-ness") is the determined that they determine,
Feeling as feeling... (etc.)"
So, "determinations determine matter as matter", basically.
If you want to know what it MEANS, that's not something I can impart in writing to you. Ñāņavīra describes it in that footnote I screencapped, but that way of his only rather underlines the purpose of the book. It's a rather curt, about 100 (~130 or so if you count Fundamental Structure) page collection of notes meant to be read over and over again as a guide to reflection on the phenomenological nature of experience (or nature of phenomena), which makes it basically a tiny simulacrum of what the suttas themselves are (although Ñāņavīra would probably reject that as being too praiseworthy).
The suttas are structured as hyper-condensed, formulaic descriptory phrasings that point to things in the individual's experience, intended to be consumed by a person that has been restrained from sensuality long-term and has withdrawn into existential solitude. You can see them as a sort of puzzle, where if you fit it right, you understand what its saying concretely in terms of your own experience, you get the result. My favourite examples of this in-built extreme complexity are the string you're responding to, and the following from DN 15 (I'll translate it; Sujāto has changed his translation and correspondingly murdered the complexity, and therefore the relevance, of the passage, so I can't just copy paste)
>‘Nāmarūpapaccayā phasso’ti iti kho panetaṁ vuttaṁ, tadānanda, imināpetaṁ pariyāyena veditabbaṁ, yathā nāmarūpapaccayā phasso. Yehi, ānanda, ākārehi yehi liṅgehi yehi nimittehi yehi uddesehi nāmakāyassa paññatti hoti, tesu ākāresu tesu liṅgesu tesu nimittesu tesu uddesesu asati api nu kho rūpakāye adhivacanasamphasso paññāyethā”ti?
"Dependent on name-&-form there is contact. Thus is it said. That, Ānanda, can be understood by this course ("going-round"), how contact is dependent on name-&-form. Those features, attributes, signs and details by which there is the making known of the name-body, those not being, would designation-contact be discernable in the form-body?"
>“Yehi, ānanda, ākārehi yehi liṅgehi yehi nimittehi yehi uddesehi rūpakāyassa paññatti hoti, tesu ākāresu …pe… tesu uddesesu asati api nu kho nāmakāye paṭighasamphasso paññāyethā”ti?
"Those features (etc.) by which there is the making known of the form body, those not being, would resistance-contact be discernable in the name-body?"
picrel is in reference to the passage I translate

[Anonymous No.22962451]

Cantavistis vos omnes hodie?

ILLIC OMNE MALUM
VINO CANTUQUE LEVATO
DEFORMIS AEGRIMONIAE
DULCIBUS ALLOQUIIS

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_kCnUkLBxA&list=OLAK5uy_mRLsexIYF8o5EHwDz50qT8kriWoTCK5QE&index=13

[Anonymous No.22962459]

>>22959114
What's the book?

[Anonymous No.22962548]

>>22961056
Oh wow, I had forgotten about Mongolians. Interesting.

>>22961162
I had thought of that, but the truth is that I only know that usage of the word because I've seen other (modern) people write it for "hello".

>>22961334
(2/2)
To be clear, this is meant to contain pretty much the whole teaching within it. So it is with a bunch of other passages of such maddening complexity that they're meant to be able to fuel your full-time pondering for several years and lead you to the right understanding ("right view") by seeing what it actually points at in your (phenomenological -- tautological but it doesn't hurt) experience.
This may also cast a light on why I actually chose to learn the language.

>>22961341
>The guy who wrote those says understanding the vedic vocabulary is very important to understand buddhism as a rejection of the vedas
I'd certainly strongly reject this. The Buddha cannot have made more clear that what he was teaching was not in any way a response to pre-existing teachings or any sort of social commentary (you'd be surprised at what Dalits have to say about this). All you need to properly understand the Dhamma is phenomena, functional intelligence, self-honesty (which will include the ability to endure restraint to a level not normally experienced by people), and the Buddha's teaching, even second-hand. You don't even strictly need Pāli (although it doesn't really make sense to me to set out on an utterly life-shattering course of no return and the greatest effort you'll ever make and yet recoil from the simple effort of learning a language), although you would need an honest translator.
In this vein, I can honestly say Kierkegaard and Heidegger were closer to understanding the Dhamma than most big name teachers that have crowds of millions. I think I can also fetch you a Ñāņavīra quote about this. (Found something right in the preface. At another point, he makes fun of a professor for saying one needs to regard the Buddha from the point of view of history and such, but that bit would be a bit askance and too filled with discussion about Kierkegaard to really address it directly. The letter, taken as a whole, would fully address this attitude, though.)
I will check your link, but it may take me a while to get to it; these effortposts have really been taking a lot of time. Doesn't help that I'm a phonefag.

[Anonymous No.22962553]

>>22962548
>I had thought of that, but the truth is that I only know that usage of the word because I've seen other (modern) people write it for "hello".
What about its use e.g. in Christian prayers?

[Anonymous No.22962568]

>>22962548
>I'd certainly strongly reject this. The Buddha cannot have made more clear that what he was teaching was not in any way a response to pre-existing teachings or any sort of social commentary
Every religious prophet claims that their words are the revealed absolute truth etc etc.

[Anonymous No.22962604]

>De istis quinque litteris tres sunt, quae sive breves sive longae ejusdemmodi sunt, a, i, u: similiter habent sive longae sive breves.
Why does Wiki (Allen) say otherwise?
>>22960909
Yes, thanks.

[Anonymous No.22962605]

>>22962553
Oh, I'm not denying that it is used, just commenting on the fact that I don't think I've encountered it yet. Maybe in some Plato excerpts somewhere along the line, but there's not much place for a friendly first-person greeting in ΑΝΑΒΑΣΙΣ.
Also didn't know it's used in prayers, by the way.
Is there any straightforward word for "yes" or "no"? I think negations just always use οὐ (i.e. "not (something)"), right? Pāli does the same thing, always "thus/so" for yes, "not this" for no. Something to do with the European Sprachsbund that we all have these things in modern languages, maybe. Doesn't even χαῖρε strictly mean something to do with grace?

[Anonymous No.22962687]

>>22962568
The Buddha, however, didn't claim anything was revealed by anything. He takes full credit, as he should.
I did, however, mention that Heidegger and Kierkegaard came decently close in some regards, as did, in yet other regards, various independent ascetics in the Buddha's time; this is why you get those famous discourses where someone only needs one sentence to become fully awakened. They had done all the preliminary work in full, had gone through the full gamut of existential dread, etc.
The Buddha, also, did not found a religion. He founded a monastic order and specifically engineered for it to become revered and culturally interwoven with society while still maintaining the necessary distance, in order for it to continue to exist, transmit the texts, and provide a place for people looking to do the work far into the future. The religious tendencies of the laymen, and even those of puthujjana monks who treated the texts as holy objects and thereby preserved them for millennia, cannot have been an entirely unintentional feature. It is, however, without doubt an auxiliary one. The example the Buddha sets right before he passes away is a good example of this: do not concern yourself with my corpse, whatever rituals of respect, etc., it is not your place. Your place is to practice. Let the laypeople do it.
Founding a religion only to have the lords of it be restrained ascetics disallowed to handle money (and a maddeningly wide amount of other restrictions) or enjoy the perks of religion does not seem logical to me. What would even be the object of worship? It's clear that modern eastern Buddhists worship the Buddha, build little shrines to him and so forth, but there's none of this in the texts, and there was none of it while he was still alive. Veneration is fitting, and more importantly, useful, though.

[Anonymous No.22962723]

>>22962687
>The Buddha, however, didn't claim anything was revealed by anything. He takes full credit, as he should.
Sure, but that doesn't mean he wasn't influenced by his time and place- he was, after all, only a human being.

[Anonymous No.22962752]

>>22962605
kinda like with Latin, it's with authors like Plautus and Aristophanes that one can get a bit of a closer feel of spoken everyday Latin/Greek
χαῖρε for example is used both for greetings and goodbye in e.g the Acharnians

[Anonymous No.22962812]

>>22962604
I mean, keep in mind that the period matters, that quote is from some Pompeius Grammaticus who lived in the fifth century apparently, that's some centuries after classical in a proper sense so I'm sure Allen's system acknowledges this author but doesn't think he's too relevant for e.g how Cicero sounded

[Anonymous No.22962860]

>>22962459
Essential Latin Vocabulary: The 1,425 Most Common Words Occurring in the Actual Writings of over 200 Latin Authors by Mark A. E. Williams. It groups them in various orders, but I find the order of occurrence the most interesting for raw drills. I've been drilling 20 new words a day, gonna probably knock that down to 10 + doing readings again in a few days now that I'm a little over halfway through. I can't overstate how helpful it's been at just understanding a larger breadth of texts.

[Anonymous No.22963370]

>>22962605
ναι και ου?

[Anonymous No.22963502]

>>22960442
Very neat article in that it suggests
manichaenism was a relatively elite religion of sogdian expats.

>>22960256
Any updates?

[Anonymous No.22963507]

Should I learn Sanskrit or try to get to 1dan in Go (currently 9kyu)

[Anonymous No.22963549]

Σωκράτης ὁ φιλόσοφος, Ἀπολλοδώρου
τινὸς γνωρίμου λέγοντος αὐτῷ,
“Ἀδικῶς σου θάνατον κατέγνωσαν
Ἀθηναῖοι,” γελάσας ἔφη, “Σὺ δὲ ἐβουλου
δικαίως;”

Sōcratēs philosophus, quum Apollodōrus
quīdam familiāris dīxisset eī,
“Injūstē tibi capite condemnāvērunt
Athēniēnsēs,” rīdēns respondit, “Tūne vērō volēbās
jūstē?”

[Anonymous No.22963562]

Is the theory that S in Classical Latin was retracted the same as in modern northern European Spanish justified? Was it the same in Attic Greek, like in modern Greek?

[Anonymous No.22963821]

>>22960617
I appreciate it, anon. Honestly, I don't find religions much more enlightening beyond keeping my mind sharp.
I imagine I'm one of the useful academics
Apologies if I came across too clinical and academic.
Back to the topic of the channel though, how did you learn Pali and how would you recommend others go about it?
I largely used the Pali Primer by de Silva before jumping straight into texts. It was fine and easy but not amazingly interesting. Now, I can translate Pali and work through the texts but I'm still wholly reliant on dictionaries.

[Anonymous No.22964316]

making a request
>>22964215

[Anonymous No.22964586]

>>22961033
Dude i can't believe Buddha already discovered negative determination two millenia before Hegel, that concept pretty much created modern phenomenology and changed western philosophy forever

[Anonymous No.22964686]

>>22962860
gratias tibi ago
I remember a decent amount of vocabulary from my schooldays but it'll be never for a refresher.

[Anonymous No.22964708]

>>22964586
>that concept pretty much created modern phenomenology and changed western philosophy forever
that's only self fulfilling prophecy.
And trusting the mental proliferation of a german about buddhism will only lead to wrong view

[Anonymous No.22964797]

>>22963502
Yes, he recommended looking into the stuff published from Turfan. He said that Sogdians were very much involved in Manichaeism as well as Zoroastrianism. He suggested reading Skjaervo's grammar if you wanted to learn Sogdian. And there was some guy involved with SOAS who wrote about Sogdians (maybe also Manichaeism with in Sogdia).

[Anonymous No.22964800]

>>22963821
I started with De Silva, but dropped it halfway through. Very unpleasant book, in my opinion. It insists on producing entirely fictional Pāli sentences rather than giving you what you'll actually find when you start reading. I ditched De Silva and restarted with Warder (which I cannot recommend more highly), and found that I already couldn't read the very first parts of actual sentences he gives you.
Warder uses the Dīgha for his whole book, so every aspect of language you're learning pertains to the early texts explicitly. De Silva doesn't just produce artificial sentences that you'll never encounter, but even his vocabulary is based on the jātakā rather than the early texts, which differs a fair bit.
As a grammar, I recommend picking up Duroiselle. Gives you exactly what you want without ever giving you more than that.

>>22964586
I provide you with the related picture.

[Anonymous No.22964809]

What to read of Medieval-Renaissance Latin? I thought "De Principatibus" was written in Latin but it's in Italian.

[Anonymous No.22964818]

>>22964809
Someone previous said that the 'Vita Caroli Magni' is a good read.

[Anonymous No.22964820]

>>22964797
I just found this too
https://sogdians.si.edu/believers-proselytizers-translators/

[Anonymous No.22964845]

>>22962723
picrel might be considered of relevance to the whole "time and place" question.
Correspondingly, the Buddha explicitly denies being human -- as well as everything else -- in Doņasutta, doing so with a word-play that again has utterly failed to be translated as far as I can see. He puts the verb in the future tense, which causes translators to err into thinking he's exclusively talking about rebirth, but they ignore the fact that this is idiomatic in Pāli (cp. English "and who would you be, then?"), and that his interlocutor in fact asks him explicitly whether he *is* human by using the future tense, also ("will the master Gotama be human[, then]?"). He's in fact making an absolute statement, applying to now as well as the future. As he often says, he has "uprooted" the whole thing. You may find something of what he means by this in picrel, also. You might also not.
In any case, he was born human. Perhaps it is possible for you to understand abstractly the idea of transcending the essence of humanity, i.e. going beyond to such a degree that the significance of being human can no longer apply beyond a biological diagnosis of the body.
(it may be profitable for the context of picrel that "dhamma" means "phenomenon", on the full scale of particularity to generality -- hence, it is also "the nature of a phenomenon", "phenomenality", as well as, correspondingly, meaning "the teaching (that the Buddha teaches) of the nature of phenomena". "Dhammabhūta" is therefore another one of those terms that could either provide you with a lot of food for thought, or be smothered in the crib by a translator.)

[Anonymous No.22964901]

>https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lingua_Latina
>there are no macrons nor apices even in the very Latin Wiki
Erasmian sisters... Is it over? Historically accurate traditionalchads won? There was no vowel length in Latin?

[Anonymous No.22964937]

>>22961341
This seems to be an impressive work of textual exegesis, especially the way he compares the Āgāmā with the Nikāyā, which is out of my reach.
His Pațiccasamuppāda seems to fall into exactly the category Ñāņavīra spends his first chapter refuting, namely an explanation in time for how rebirth comes about (I must admit to having only skimmed it). In both of these things the issue is apparent. The Buddha says this is to be known here and now, atemporally, by someone of and in his own experience. The issue with this, then, is twofold:
1: It is an abstract theory developed through exegesis rather than a phenomenological, akālika description of what is in the author's own experience.
2: It is a theory purporting to "explain", get under, some facet of material existence, which therefore inherently defies the sort of understanding the Buddha talks about.
So, not only has he not understood, he has crafted his theory such that it cannot be understood. The fact that the Dhamma is fundamentally underpinned by the fact of not being able to step out of one's experience utterly belies his entire project.
The difficulty in understanding the Dhamma is not so much in "figuring it out", like in a way that fits on a flowchart, but in starting from the right, existential, personal place and continuing from there. Theories like this cut out the person trying to get to the depths of his own personal suffering/existence and excise it. In doing so, it excises the whole Dhamma. It is not an uncommon failure.
A quick, albeit not very insightful way of refuting the very idea that PS should be an explanation of how rebirth comes about would be the fact that the Buddha firmly classifies kammavipāka as "unthinkable/not to be thought about" because it would "lead only to distraction or insanity". PS, on the other hand, is the ground principle of the entire teaching and "to be known individually by the wise". This would be an unacceptable contradiction.
If you're interested in this, it might be profitable for you to actually read Ñāņavīra's work -- and watch Ñāņamoli Thero's youtube channel, which has none of the flowcharty abstractness and all of the "peering into the depths of your own personal existence".
picrel is what the Dhamma, as a description of the actual individual experience of an ariyasāvaka, could look like (cf. "Meanings" by Ñāņamoli Thero). You'll find the same sort of "loopy" quality here as in the Khajjanīyasutta excerpt (on determinations) I posted before. You can consider that that's because they come from the same place, only divided by 2500 years.
If you would like me to respond more in depth to any particular note of this lexicographer gentleman, let me know.

[Anonymous No.22965006]

>>22957098
>>Μέγα τὸ Ἑλληνιστί/Ῥωμαϊστί·
And not a single macron again lmao?
Wtf sisters I can't read anything in my fancy authentic Classical pronunciation with authentic vowel length!!!

[Anonymous No.22965495]

Notice that Jews wrote bars over their letters, but nobody else in antiquity did. Ā is אֿ in disguise. Makes us wonder? Why did the Jews want everyone to say things long and retarded, but the Ancients themselves didn't?

[Anonymous No.22965497]

Aliti legis o Socrates

[Anonymous No.22965504]

>>22965497
*sokratis

[Anonymous No.22965508]

Saying a long vowel is circumcision of the throat. No European has retarded long sounds natively. Notice the Persians didn't have them either until the muslims and jews fucked them

[Anonymous No.22965511]

he's getting really desperate

[Anonymous No.22965518]

Hey guys I thought of a joke

If you really think you got abducted by aliens, then the anus probandi is yours

[Anonymous No.22965526]

>>22965518
You mom's an anus probandi.

[Anonymous No.22965529]

>>22965511
LOL ERASMIANSISTERS ENGLISH HAS LONG VOWELS TOO!
Waaaaaaaaaaaaatch meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee speeeeeeeaAAAAAAak (it has piiiIIIiitch AaaaCCceennntt TOOOOOO) theeeeee mOoooost BEEEEstessssst eeeeeengliiish, baarbaaaariaaaans!

[Anonymous No.22965534]

>>22965529
Please record yourself saying this line while slobbering on a cock, I'll pay you 100$ for it.

[Anonymous No.22965539]

>i can tell you how to speak your own language
>I can tell you about your own history
>oops your ansisters were gay and spoke retarded!
>oops your ansisters never existed at all !
>bow to me
>submit to me

[Anonymous No.22965546]

>>22965534
>t. Jewish cock forces his throat open for longer
>buuuuuuut ittttt's theeee cooorreeeeect waaaaay tooooo speeeeaaaak greeeek
>mayyyyyyniiiiiiin awwwweyyyyyydayyyyyyy theyyyyyyawwww, payyyyyylayyyyeeeeeeadayyyyyohhhh awwwwkeyyyyylayyyyyyoze (I'm so sophisticated I'm so smart I love global jewry)

[Anonymous No.22965556]

>yes... trust me... I can teach you your language better than you know it....

[Anonymous No.22965576]

>haha your ansisters were NOTHING like you hahaha just trust me!
>you have no ansisters amerimutt
>but if you did they were gay and trans and retarded :)

[Anonymous No.22965584]

Hey now, mocking pronunciationfags is one thing but posting pictures of disgusting jews is a step too far. Have decency and spare my poor eyes.

[Anonymous No.22965591]

Miror quid, sententia ianitorum, "trolling outside of /b/" vel "flooding/spamming" videatur, cum plane negent illas nugas pigerrimas id esse.

[Anonymous No.22965592]

>>22964937
Hey, random anon here. I think this is the first time I've come across another person interested in Nanavira, Hillside hermitage and so on on this god-forsaken website. Are you considering ordaining? Now that they've moved to Slovenia I think Bhante has already brought in a couple of novices and anagarikas, who I presume are in a similar position to us in terms of Buddhist literature read and so on.

[Anonymous No.22965743]

>>22965584
>noooooo dont show how ugly we are we're your masters!!!!

[Anonymous No.22965746]

Why are you not learning Serbo-Croatian? It's the ONLY European language with a living bardic tradition. But no, spend your hours on classical ching ding shong ning and debating over Latin pronunciation.

[Anonymous No.22965772]

>>22962605
From Cyropaedia book 4:
ἐνῆν δὲ ἐν τῇ ἐπιστολῇ τάδε:
Κῦρος Κυαξάρῃ χαίρειν
book 5:
ἐπεὶ δὲ τοῦτο ἐγένετο, εὐθὺς Γαδάτας ὁ εὐνοῦχος τὰ ἔνδον καταστήσας ἐξῆλθε πρὸς τὸν Κῦρον, καὶ τῷ νόμῳ προσκυνήσας εἶπε, χαῖρε, Κῦρε.
Probably some more examples but it certainly was used.

[Anonymous No.22965779]

>yesss your ansisters were slavs!!
>jewishslavs are the real macedoon!

[Anonymous No.22965790]

>>22960608
ἙΤΑΙΡΟΙ, οὗτος μωρός ἀναγιγνώσκων, μόνον ἐπί Μιλλερ Γρουε.

[Anonymous No.22965802]

>>>2959620
ΧΡΩΜΕΝΟΣ ΤΗ ΝΕΑΕΛΛΗΝΙΚΗ ΓΡΑΦΩ ΜΟΝΟΝ ΕΝ ΚΑΠΟΙΣ ΩΣΠΕΡ ΠΛΑΤΩΝ

[Anonymous No.22965850]

>>22957155
was thinking the same with both sumerian and akkadian, but a few lessons in I shit my pants

[Anonymous No.22965854]

>>22965746
There’s no debate over Latin pronunciation. There’s the official pronunciation of the holy Catholic Church and that’s it. Everything else is an illiterate fantasy of greasy barbarians from discord servers.

[Anonymous No.22965874]

he's not even baiting the hooks anymore

[Anonymous No.22965882]

>did you know your ancestors were gay trans african womxn that sounded like howling retard monkeys?

[Anonymous No.22966470]

what the fuck are you retards even on about?

[Anonymous No.22966506]

>>22966470
Just some "Greek" schizo that fancies himself a troll despite getting zero (you)s, ignore him.

[Anonymous No.22966523]

Is translating Ancient Greek works into Latin good practice? Or is that just cringe?

[Anonymous No.22966538]

>>22965850
Why specifically? I've been reading their stuff in translation, I glanced at some stuff about the language and it didn't seem too terribly crazy (presuming you're looking at pre-transliterated text, that is).

[Anonymous No.22966540]

>>22966523
seems pretty based, especially to practice both, even if it takes time away from reading practice alone

[Anonymous No.22966864]

>>22966538
Different anon. I have a friend in the JHU PhD program who is probably an actual genius, and he says they are the hardest languages he's ever studied. This is beyond the script.

[Anonymous No.22966872]

>>22966864
Sumerian I could believe because it's an isolate, but it seems weird that a language with known relatives would be quite that difficult. Interesting to hear, though. Know anything about the specifics of why he feels that way?

[Anonymous No.22966890]

ἐν τῷ μεσῷ τῆς ὁδοῦ τοῦ βιοῦ ἡμέτερου,
εὗρον ἐμαυτον ἐν τινι σκότει ὕλῃ
ἀπετρεψα γάρ τῆς ὀρθής ὁδοῦ

[Anonymous No.22966899]

>>22966864
>who is probably an actual genius
>and he says they are the hardest languages he's ever studied

[Anonymous No.22966949]

>>22966890
Btw for anyone curious I just discovered a translation made by a 19th century Greek named Konstantinos Mousouros. Wikipedia says it's in Attic but it may just be very high Katharevousa, I've only read the first page so can't say. Thought some of you might find it interesting, it's on archive.org.

[Anonymous No.22966976]

People need to stop taking the bait of this one schizo.
You're better than this greekbros.

[Anonymous No.22966977]

>https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scrittura_e_pronuncia_del_latino#Versione_semplificata
Is there really anything wrong with this one? It seems to be made by actual Italians and it also resembles the traditional Greek pronunciation of Latin based on which many things in reconstruction were adopted.
A serious question, anons.

[Anonymous No.22966992]

>>22966977
This one's a lot less larpy, but the Ecclesiastical Pronunciation is still the best

[Anonymous No.22966993]

>>22966976
t. circumcissed

[Anonymous No.22967009]

Reminder that the only languages with vowel lenght actually in the script (the proof) are arab and semitic.

[Anonymous No.22967029]

he'll get bored eventually

[Anonymous No.22967229]

>>22966992
Not really, it's literally more recent than the reconstruction and is a literal newspeak. The most "le trad et le based" one would be the traditional pronunciation of Northern and Eastern Europe (where Latin was the official language of government until the very 19th century) but it differs from this phonetic one only by having the soft C, monophthongization of AE and OE, voicing of S, and /v/ instead of /w/.

[Anonymous No.22967362]

>>22966872
>>22966899
I do know that he listed the script, Akkadian more so than Sumerian, as being a challenge, but I don't remember what was difficult grammatically. I think part of it has to do with dialectal variance. I would ask him right now, but he's busy doing some crazy shit right now. I don't want to say anything further because it would definitely reveal his identity. Just let me leave it at this. He is in a PhD program and has a paid position, he takes more classes than he should (and gets A's), he has a part-time job, and he is competent in more languages than anyone here. I firmly believe that he will be a giant in Semitics if he chooses to pursue that instead of other lucrative offers available to him. I reply not to argue but to indicate the difficulty with Akkadian and to tell of the prodigy.

[Anonymous No.22967378]

>>22967362
Looking more into Sumerian, it does seem a bit wild compared to any modern or even classical language just in terms of the number of moods, cases, etc., in addition to being agglutinative.

[Anonymous No.22967435]

It's peaceful in /clg/ with real enthusiasts here and moroi in their containment thread
What are you reading this weekend? I'm reading Argonautica and trying to get five good games of Go and five good complete reviews in. Maybe I'll look at some Classical Chinese writing on Go for the fun of it.

[Anonymous No.22967592]

>>22967435
just finished book 4 of the Odyssey, gonna re-read it and since book 5 is one of the shorter ~500 lines ones maybe I'll have that one read by sunday too, idk
I'll see if I can fit in some Cicero and also finish re-reading the gospel of Matthew

[Anonymous No.22967612]

>>22967592
Sounds like a good weekend

[Anonymous No.22967691]

>>22967435
Just picked this up and excited to read it

[Anonymous No.22967703]

>>22967691
Can you please post the index

[Anonymous No.22967720]

>>22967435
Continuing Tacitus' Annals, some Catullus with a focus on meter, Werner Jaeger and some palaeographical works

[Anonymous No.22967733]

>>22967691
you must be very good in greek because even in translation these would filter me

[Anonymous No.22967782]

>>22967720
I recommend Catullus 85 and 101. They're very good poems.

[Anonymous No.22967830]

>>22967703
https://www.loebclassics.com/view/LCL335/1939/volume.xml

>>22967733
I'm alright in Greek but by trade I once taught math to hopeless community college kids so that helps. Almost all of this math is outmoded but ingenious with limited tools. You can often pick up a compass and straightedge and try to follow along.

[Anonymous No.22967893]

>>22967362
>I don't want to say anything further because it would definitely reveal his identity
no it wouldn't
no one fucking cares lmao

[Anonymous No.22967958]

It just struck me how sad it is that there were probably people in the Middle Ages who spent their lives studying Latin, yet reached a level worse than your average redditor with LLPSI.

[Anonymous No.22967984]

>>22967958
>probably

[Anonymous No.22968405]

>>22965850
Maybe you need to eat less fatty foods. Anyway, I think what's generally recommended is learn akkadian, then learn sumerian after.

[Anonymous No.22968568]

>>22964797
big ups on Skjaervo's grammar, spent an hour today with it and its been going good. I'll look into Turfan.

[Anonymous No.22969009]

i know a girl who studied akkadian, can't be this hard

[Anonymous No.22969100]

>>22967691
Oooo, nice.

[Anonymous No.22969249]

>>22967782
No one asked for recommendations, and certainly not basic Latin 101 ones

[Anonymous No.22969252]

>>22967958
retard

[Anonymous No.22969482]

>>22965592
I came across Bhante for the first time on godforsaken Reddit. Honestly, it seems to me that Bhante and Ñāņavīra would appeal much more to the 4chan sentiment than anywhere else on the internet.
>Are you considering ordaining?
I'm plagued by severe health issues that would make this borderline, if not entirely impossible. Nevertheless, I'm holding on to the possibility.
I've already practiced for several years, setting up a solitude-capable environment etc. for several years prior to this point. Bhante himself told me to stop in order to get to equilibrium (and not go insane, significantly) and let it "sink in", so to speak. Therefore, I've basically been pissing away the days, reading and learning languages, for the last one and a half years. That's why I'm here at all.

>Now that they've moved to Slovenia I think Bhante has already brought in a couple of novices and anagarikas, who I presume are in a similar position to us in terms of Buddhist literature read and so on.
I, correspondingly, haven't watched any of his videos for one and a half years. He'd just gotten his own spot when I ducked out. I had been hoping for the prospect of ordaining at Samaņadīpa (I think that's the name? Other place in Slovenia, Bhante used to recommend it; it's run by a Path Press monk). Good to hear he's properly settled in, though.

[Anonymous No.22969501]

>>22963562
Bump.

[Anonymous No.22969508]

>>22967435
I'm somewhere in book four of Anabasis now, honestly getting really good now; trekking through the mountains of Armenia, constantly being tailed by the beggars in rags that seem to form most of the armies of Persian satraps, even just a random local population (Kardouchians?) rising up into mountaintop guerrilla warfare.
Xenophon just went out of his way to relate the happy ending that a Greek soldier fell in love with a hostage teenager, son of the village chief who ran away, and carried him off to Greece in the end, where he was "most faithful". Funny how much the culture differs.
captcha: RRAWP

[Anonymous No.22969532]

>>22957098
Other than the Vulgate, what are some post-classical authors or texts that aren't too bad for a first read after your grammar? I peeked at Vita Karoli Magni and Confessiones so far.

[Anonymous No.22969594]

>>22969532
Isidorus

[Anonymous No.22969617]

>>22969249
No need to be angry, child.

[Anonymous No.22969622]

wheelock

[Anonymous No.22969633]

Tamed, he is supreme among those who tame;
At peace, he is the sage among those who bring peace;
Freed, he is the chief of those who set free;
Delivered, he is the best of those who deliver.

—Anguttara Nikaya 4:23

[Anonymous No.22969714]

>>22969617
cry more faggot

[Anonymous No.22969796]

>>22969532
Maybe Gesta Francorum.

[Anonymous No.22969806]

>>22969009
I did too and I'd like to tell her I'm sorry although she probably wouldn't give a shit

>>22969508
It's a thrill. You might read Cyropaideia next. Similar style but more "exciting"

[Anonymous No.22969814]

>>22969532
Aestuans Intrinsicus

[Anonymous No.22969830]

>>22969806
You're sorry for what, Anon?

[Anonymous No.22969841]

>>22969830
Her boyfriend cheated with one of my closest friends and I broke the news. I could have done a lot differently there. I shouldn't have introduced those two to begin with

[Anonymous No.22969846]

Anyway, what I learned in a past life is that relationships between academes tend to be really bad news. Find a partner who knows a craft really well or something. That makes life better

[Anonymous No.22969878]

>>22957098
Does someone know if the post here >>22953632
is a classical language?

[Anonymous No.22969895]

>>22969878
Almost certainly not

[Anonymous No.22970284]

>>22969532
the Venerable Bede is considered to have excellent Latinity. If history is your thing, read Historia ecclesiastica gentis Anglorum

[Anonymous No.22970549]

>>22969714
No need to swear, child.

[Anonymous No.22970582]

>>22967435
Reading the Apology since I got bored of the Anabasis Alexandrou. Reading English translations of Plato versus Greek Plato is like getting blasted in the face with strawberry vape from someone walking in front of you versus smoking a good cigar.

[Anonymous No.22970713]

>moritūrus...tam tædiōsa sunt hæc certāmina, ut domī cum meretrīcibus epulārī mālim quam istos gladiatores, qui pugnant ut agricolæ, spectāre.

[Anonymous No.22970860]

>>22957155
It is fun, but only if you know other Semitic languages, otherwise it's very difficult.

[Anonymous No.22970915]

I guessed my first Sanskrit/Prakrit/Pali word today, I saw rupakammam on an inscription and I guessed it was a conjugated form of rupa (form) + karma (action) = "give form to," "make," probably "made by" and I was more or less right

For some reason now I've been learning Devanagari all morning. It's really not that hard if you enjoy making little mnemonics, if you are the type who likes to memorize little songs you can learn it very quickly. At least from what I've seen so far.

I downloaded R.G. Bhandarkar's First and Second Books of Sanskrit from archive.org which seem to date from the late 19th century so I'm going to see how far I get before my ADHD kicks in.

[Anonymous No.22971047]

How common are Sanskrit texts in Brahmi script? Or Kannada? I adore the aesthetics of those

[Anonymous No.22971804]

>>22970549
keep feeding me (You)'s, dicksucker, it is the mature thing to do

[Anonymous No.22971842]

σιγήσατον

[Anonymous No.22972300]

>>22970713
where is this from

[Anonymous No.22972477]

>>22972300
if your asking about the text, my brain

[Anonymous No.22972742]

Where do I start with Sanskrit, especially if I want to read the Buddhist Tantras?

[Anonymous No.22973113]

>>22961033
How do you translate vitakka and vicara ?

[Anonymous No.22973190]

I was mindlessly scrolling through youtube shorts instead of studying and found some influencer linguist guy who claimed "they drink milk" would be "il boivent del lait" in Old French. Except OF was an inflective pro-drop language and using the de+le contraction to qualify an uncountable noun is relatively modern usage. It would be "lait boivent".
He mindlessly transposed modern French syntax onto the 12th century form of the language and it triggers me so hard. I get that the guy is a polyglot; speaking five modern languages fluently is an impressive feat, and that's all the more reason he should steer away from trying to educate the masses in topics he hasn't mastered.

[Anonymous No.22973221]

speaking of french, there is a nice wesbite for french dictionaries
https://www.cnrtl.fr/definition/


Le portail lexical est un projet mené par le laboratoire ATILF dont l'objectif est de valoriser des ressources linguistiques issues de différents projets de recherche au sein d'un portail unique.

Les ressources actuellement utilisées pour le portail lexical sont :
>Morphologie Le lexique Morphalou 2.0
>>Phonétisation réalisée par l'équipe Parole au LORIA
>>Le synthétiseur de voix utilise LIA_PHON et MBROLA
>Lexicographie Le Trésor de la Langue Française informatisé (TLFi)
>>Les dictionnaires de l'Académie Française (4ème, 8ème et 9ème édition)
>>La Base de données lexicographiques panfrancophone de l'université Laval de Québec
>>La Base Historique du Vocabulaire Français du laboratoire ATILF
>>Le Dictionnaire du Moyen Français (1330 - 1500) du laboratoire ATILF
>>Le Du Cange (Moyen Âge) de l'École Nationale des Chartes
>Etymologie Le Trésor de la Langue Française informatisé
>>Le projet de recherche TLF-Étym (mise à jour des notices étymologiques du TLF)
>Synonymie et Antonymie Le dictionnaire de synonymes du laboratoire CRISCO
>Proxémie projet Prox du laboratoire ERSS
>Concordance Le corpus Frantext libre de droits

[Anonymous No.22973232]

>>22973221
I see that it includes a Middle French dictionary, so let me contribute some Old French dictionaries:

>F. Godefroy, Dictionnaire de l'ancienne langue française et de tous ses dialectes du 9e au 15e siècle
https://micmap.org/dicfro/home/dictionnaire-godefroy
Very complete, but the number of poorly attested lemmata is alarming. Good if you encounter an unknown word in a text. Also, that same website has useful glossaries for the Song of Roland, Chrétien de Troyes and the Roman de Renart, among others.

>The Anglo-Norman Dictionary
https://anglo-norman.net/
Not quite as complete, but more intuitive and certainly more useful for texts written in the Anglo-French of the 12th to 14th centuries. Also has English translations.

[Anonymous No.22973432]

>>22973113
Thinking and pondering. The context is very clear all throughout the suttas. As always, the commentarial definition is a hell of a reach, in this case in order to fit with their preconceived notions of what meditation is.
Vicāra from vicāreti, i.e. the causative of "wandering about", which isn't hard to imagine applying to thought. (Vi)takka is all over the suttas as "thinking"/"thought". In the places where other teachers are attacked over their epistemology as being non-phenomenological, specifically, "takka" means "(abstract) thinking", "rationalisation", i.e. thinking that something you've thought up makes sense and going with it, which cannot reach the sphere of what the Buddha teaches.

[Anonymous No.22973489]

>>22973432
so you think the jahnas are hard, not soft right?

[Anonymous No.22974152]

>>22973221
woah this is so much better than wiktionary. merci fra

[Anonymous No.22974568]

>>22964901
Latin isn't usually written with macrons because someone who knows the language can generally tell, just like we don't úsually bóther índicating the áccent on évery polysyllábic word in Énglish. We do have some Roman inscriptions with apices though.

[Anonymous No.22974595]

>>22966977
The information given here seems to contradict itself, it says elephās /ˈeleɸas/ but then below it says PH is /pʰ/.

[Anonymous No.22974606]

>>22967009
Also Sanskrit. And Japanese. And Finnish. And Mongolian. And German (in a roundabout way). And Irish. And Hungarian. And Czech. And...

[Anonymous No.22974613]

>>22967435
What's the containment thread?

[Anonymous No.22974648]

>>22974613
you can see the schizo get btfo here >>22967041

[Anonymous No.22974884]

You are sent back to Athens, 440 BC., or Rome 1 AD if you're a Latinfag.
How do you explain that you come from the future? What do you try to talk with them about? How do you explain what a phone is?

[Anonymous No.22974892]

>>22974884
Why would I ever want to tell the greeks or the romans what a phone is? It's the worst invention of the past thousand years

[Anonymous No.22974899]

>>22974884
Steam engine is very super trivial, you don't need to prove your from future but this would probably cause industrial revolution in Rome rather than 1800 years later.

[Anonymous No.22974911]

>>22974899
Wasn't the reason the steam engine wasn't invented until when it was partly to do with the quality of available materials and machining, and not only economic incentives?

[Anonymous No.22974924]

>>22974884
If I was sent back to ancient China I couldn't converse orally at all but I could communicate with them in writing. I'd be the mute barbarian literata wonder! (If I could come back, I would be frantically taking notes about Old Chinese pronunciation the whole time. Or for that matter even if I couldn't I could write down proper linguistic descriptions of it and hope they survive.)

[Anonymous No.22974929]

>>22974911
I am not sure. You maybe onto something with machining.

[Anonymous No.22974939]

>>22974884
I'd show the Pythagoreans irrefutable proof of the irrationality of pi and sqrt2, give a basic course on calculus, abstract algebra, and real analysis, and probably be put to death like Hippasus

[Anonymous No.22974949]

Trolling any ancient civilization with modern Math would be really fun. Who would be most receptive to it? I'd hedge my bets with India, with golden age Baghdadis right after them as long as I leave out compound interest.

[Anonymous No.22974992]

>>22974949
I can barely do division and basic equations, I wouldn't be the one "trolling" them for sure.

[Anonymous No.22975011]

>>22974992
That's rough, anon. It's never too late to learn, and if you do decide to, I think you'll find that math and classics complement each other nicely. I used to tell my community college students that a math class was a better way to blow your mind than psychedelics, and I stand by that statement. I hope you get to explore some calculus and maybe abstract algebra, because who doesn't is missing out.

[Anonymous No.22975528]

Is the natural acquisition vs grammar-translation debate just a debate between ADHD people and autistic people?

[Anonymous No.22975550]

>>22975528
I'm both and also schizoaffective

[Anonymous No.22975566]

>>22975528
lmao good way to sum it

[Anonymous No.22975586]

>>22975528
I used both methods back when I learnt Latin

[Anonymous No.22975612]

>>22975528
Yes.

[Anonymous No.22975631]

>>22975528
No.

[Anonymous No.22975723]

>>22975550
do you know Sanskrit, perchance?

[Anonymous No.22975766]

>>22975723
No.

[Anonymous No.22975915]

If I were to learn Old French, would it be better to learn modern French first? I don't speak any romance languages

[Anonymous No.22975928]

>>22975915
It's not as if you need to, but it would probably be best. As a francophone myself, old French is not that hard once you get into its rhythm, and I have never once studied it formally.

[Anonymous No.22975947]

>>22975915
Not really considering that Old French is broken up into two general categories (North - langue d'oïl & South - langue d'oc) and these are further subdivided into more specific regional dialects. Also it is a literary register. It is a smaller domain to master than an evolving living language.

[Anonymous No.22975953]

>>22975528
It's a debate between people who acknowledge empirical evidence and people who deny it on the basis of things they reasoned from first principles from their armchair.

[Anonymous No.22976007]

How do we feel about Geoffrey Steadman? I've read Anabasis A and Histories A through him. I want to read some Plato next. Am I wasting my time though?

[Anonymous No.22976073]

>>22975953
>I AM SILLY
you are not and never will be a woman

[Anonymous No.22976097]

>>22976007
I will have to look this guy up first.

>>22975953
Yes

[Anonymous No.22976105]

>>22976073
>you are not a woman
>oh you are a woman? then show me your boobs

Please leave this board immediately.

[Anonymous No.22976140]

>>22976105
I never said the latter
You are a deluded man pretending to be a woman. Look at the man hands you use to type your posts, posts which read like a man wrote them, which he did.
/clg/ is a troon-free zone. You are the one who should leave if being called what you are offends you

[Anonymous No.22976171]

>>22975915
I think there's only one other /clg/ anon besides me who's seriously studied OF, so I'm qualified to answer.
The short answer is no. The long answer is that, while Einhorn's textbook is both concise and excellent and following the course seriously will be enough to prepare you for vocabulary acquisition by reading and consulting dictionaries and glossaries, the correct course of action heavily depends on what you want to read.
The Old French corpus consists of chronicles, biographies of kings and renowned knights, chansons dealing with the matter of France, romances dealing with the Arthurian cycle, some lyric poetry in imitation of the southern troubadours, as well as allegorical poems and fables such as the Roman de la Rose and the Roman de Renart. It is actually quite diverse, but French literature becomes even more diverse from the 16th century onwards, so if you have an interest in this, then learn modern French first and then learning how to read Old French shouldn't take you longer than a month.
>>22975947
That is completely incorrect. The southern langues d'Oc had their own literary register called Old Occitan. Old French only refers to the Oïl dialects of the northern half of the country which later spread to England and the Levant.

[Anonymous No.22976200]

>>22976171
>biographies of kings and renowned knights
Not to mention saints. How could I forget Saint Alexis?
In general, I'm less interested in religious literature, but there's also quite a lot of that.

[Anonymous No.22976209]

>>22976171
> "Old French" in fact refers to a collection of dialects. Since some of these dialects share more characteristics than others, it is possible to divide them in two groups: the dialects spoken in the northern parts of France, to which one refers as language d'oïl and those spoken in the Southern parts, referred to as langue d'oc. Oc and oïl were markers of affirmation ('yes') in the respective dialect groups.
https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/eieol/ofrol/0

[Anonymous No.22976220]

>>22976105
This isn't me
>>22976140
The latter has been said in previous threads. More than once if I recall. But I guess that was a different anon.

[Anonymous No.22976224]

>>22975528
It's not an actual debate. You should both study grammar and read a lot.

[Anonymous No.22976236]

>>22975915
Why wouldn't you just study French first? 100x easier to learn since you would have people to talk to, movies, many more books..
Imagine if modern Greek had a French-like corpus and wasn't a shitty Albanian peasant language.

[Anonymous No.22976254]

OF anons, just wondering, if I know a Romance language as native(Italian) + very good Latin, can I appreciate the Chanson de Roland without having to delve deeply into the language?

[Anonymous No.22976302]

I've learned three Indo-European classical languages to a decent level and I generally think I'm a quick learner. How long do you think it would take for me to get to an intermediate level with Classical Chinese? I've never tried to learn a logographic script before. It seems fun, but also of course daunting

[Anonymous No.22976303]

>>22976209
>Although this course in Old French is too short to make dialect variation a topic of special interest
Seems like a pointless debate about linguistic proximity. The corpora of both OF and Old Occitan are different enough to warrant classifying them separately, which is the consensus anyway.
>>22976254
It might be difficult. Old French becomes easier as centuries pass and the case system falls into disuse. The Chanson was composed in the 11th century, so it's actually very old. How well do you understand the following laisse (chosen at random):
>La bataille est merveilluse e cumune.
>Li quens Rollant mie ne s'asoüret :
>Fiert de l' espiét tant cum hanste li duret,
>A quinze cols l' ad fraitë e rumpue ;
>Trait Durendal, sa bone espee, nue,
>Sun cheval brochet, si vait ferir Chernuble :
>L' elme li freint u li carbuncle luisent,
>Trenchet le chef e la cheveleüre,
>Si li trenchat les oilz e la faiture,
>Le blanc osberc dunt la maile est menue,
>Et tut le cors tresqu'en la furcheüre.
>Enz en la sele, ki est a or batue,
>El cheval est l' espee aresteüe ;
>Trenchet l'eschine, unc n'i out quis jointure,
>Tut abat mort el préd sur l'erbe drue.
>Aprés li dist : 'Culvert, mar i moüstes !
>De Mahumet ja n'i avrez aiüde.
>Par tel glutun n' ert bataille oi vencue.'

[Anonymous No.22976307]

>>22976254
the more limited morphology and the abundant use of prepositions makes it a lot clearer to read so if you are already good in Latin, it will be like a walk in the park. Since you already share vocab from the same family pool, youĺl only be filtered by the hyper specific regional vocab which is easily fixed with a lexicon.

[Anonymous No.22976360]

>>22976303
mmh indeed, less than I had imagined, many words surely familiar but aside from being a passage I guess about a specific fight on horse, and then one addressing another saying you won't get help from Mohammad or something I can't understand much
too much phonological changes already I think

[Anonymous No.22976394]

>>22976360
Correct. While >>22976307 is right about the more limited morphology, some phonological changes can make the language confusing to even a modern French speaker. How are you supposed to know that quens is the nominative singular of conte, an extremely common word?
The hyper specific vocab can be looked up in a dictionary but it gets autistic sometimes (e.g. over 100 words for different types of horses, most of which didn't survive).

[Anonymous No.22976421]

>>22976394
>e.g. over 100 words for different types of horses, most of which didn't survive
kek, any other languages with a similar fixation with a concept/thing?

[Anonymous No.22976498]

>>22976171
Thanks anon. I'm primarily interested in chivalric romances with a secondary interest in the hundred years' war, and my interest in that region of Europe wanes after the late middle ages. Just to clarify, is it still the case that if I learned modern French it would only take me roughly a month of study to learn the OF I would be using for that time period? If that's so, it's probably better for me to pick up modern first since I imagine there will come a time I'm interested in reading later texts.
>>22976236
I asked because I do not know how similar it is to modern French.

[Anonymous No.22976520]

>>22976498
If you're interested in history at all you should learn modern French anyway. So much of that field is in French it's absurd. The best resource for this is the Assimil course, though it's not perfect. Use the audio diligently and follow the books' instructions to a tee and you well come out of it better than most introductory college courses.

[Anonymous No.22976531]

>>22976498
>Just to clarify, is it still the case that if I learned modern French it would only take me roughly a month of study to learn the OF I would be using for that time period?
Absolutely. Might be even less than a month.
Just do Einhorn's course (only 16 chapters of varying importance) to get the grammar down and then start reading with the help of dictionaries and glossaries like you would any other language. I listed some useful resources here: >>22973232
Learning French from scratch, modern or old, is not an easy task however, so I wish you the best of luck.

[Anonymous No.22976565]

>>22976531
I don't know Einhorn but I agree with this assessment. Finish any course then read Le Petit Prince asap, along with an audiobook, and reread constantly. Then do the same with another book. My next book was Thérèse Raquin by Zola, but you can go with something else if it interests you more.

[Anonymous No.22976566]

>>22976531
Do you know of any audio resources like on yt? like someone reading OF

[Anonymous No.22976571]

I read French purely for scholarly reasons (I find the French language and people disgusting) and I will chip in that I never found French particularly challenging, just sloppy and unappealing, so the only way I learned it was by force-feeding myself Sandberg for a week and then doing lots of extensive reading. If you don't love French you are never gonna love it so just commit to extensive reading early on and plan to be able to read it in 3-6 months.

[Anonymous No.22976590]

>>22976566
No, sorry about that. I've never sought out any audio resources. I've been following the phonological tables in Einhorn when reading OF out loud.

[Anonymous No.22976593]

>>22976531
Thank you anon!
>>22976520
I'll look into that, thanks.

[Anonymous No.22976605]

>>22976421

Well, Sanskrit is notorious for prolificness/profligacy with synonyms. I bet you there are over 100 words for lotus, for instance. But, while some do refer to subvarieties (e.g. utpala), many of them are kennings and other kinds of compound words (e.g. pankaja, "mud-born"). So with virtually every entity of any importance—elephants, horses, the Sun, the moon, the Earth, Indra, Vishnu (in principle every god should have 1000 names)...

[Anonymous No.22976617]

>>22976571
What authors have you read in French?

[Anonymous No.22976902]

>>22976421
nigger English has over 100 words for different types of horses, as well as cats and dogs. You just aren't aware of them because horses aren't as important to daily life for you.

[Anonymous No.22976946]

>>22976902
I don't remember claiming otherwise.

[Anonymous No.22976966]

>>22976946
>any other languages with a similar fixation with a concept/thing?
English, the language you are using right now

[Anonymous No.22976981]

>>22976224
That’s logical, as any well educated Roman would’ve done that, but the particular pickiness seems to be the order in which you do it.

[Anonymous No.22977067]

>>22976966
and I thank you for your answer, faggot

[Anonymous No.22977075]

>>22976520
I seriously doubt the French have good historiography.

[Anonymous No.22977134]

>>22977075
You are simply wrong. French is of immeasurable value as a scholarly language. Anyone will tell you so.

[Anonymous No.22977176]

>>22977075
Senpai that’s all they have.

[Anonymous No.22977197]

>>22977075
And you are seriously wrong. Even in Classical scholarship French is second only to German

[Anonymous No.22977202]

>>22977134
>>22977176
Why is this? What makes it valuable, precisely? The French insist on themselves of course but never state their merits.

[Anonymous No.22977217]

>>22977202
Nothing I guess. Clearly a distinguished and experienced historian such as yourself would know if French were of any use. Since you don't, it isn't, case closed.

[Anonymous No.22977225]

>>22977217
That doesn't really explain anything. You're just saying "well if you don't agree then you just don't get it", which isn't helpful at all. If there were a reason to like French you could just say it. You could have just bothered to say that you liked the tone or something. Not only is your case not convincing, you sound like an ass.

[Anonymous No.22977238]

>>22977225
I am an ass, thank you.
>the tone
You read history for the tone?
This isn't about 'liking' French. It is about its usefulness in historiography. What's funny is your aggressive adamance about a subject you are clearly unfamiliar with.
There isn't really an answer to your question besides this - there are many, many excellent historical works written in French, and many of them are untranslated. If that isn't sufficient for you stick to English.

[Anonymous No.22977245]

>>22977225
>Not only is your case not convincing, you sound like an ass.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=im12n56EcAE

[Anonymous No.22977259]

>>22967435
De rerum natura and book II of the Histories. I hate poetry so have to force myself to read more of it to get better, gratia Deae meae. It's not that bad once I stopped fearing its free order and infinite new words.

[Anonymous No.22977261]

>>22977238
>You read history for the tone?
I always look for good writing. You know you're on the /lit/ board, yes?

>This isn't about 'liking' French. It is about its usefulness in historiography. What's funny is your aggressive adamance about a subject you are clearly unfamiliar with.

Very mistaken. I'm admitting I don't know anything about it and therefore you could at least make the case for it. I got three replies back telling me that French is supposedly good, but none bother- vel possunt- explain why.

>There isn't really an answer to your question besides this - there are many, many excellent historical works written in French, and many of them are untranslated.

I am not convinced they are at all excellent.

>If that isn't sufficient for you stick to English

I'm trying to keep my German and Latin sharp in addition to just now getting into Greek. If there's not a strong reason to pick another language on top then I can't be bothered. Let me tell you that I was hoping you would convince me to learn French this whole time. I don't think I can maintain anymore languages. I don't have the ability or the time so of course German and Latin are going to take priority.

[Anonymous No.22977289]

>>22977261
>I know nothing about French, French historical works or the impact of French on history in general
>yet I doubt it is excellent, or even good
>convince me
nah

[Anonymous No.22977296]

I can't wait to git gud at Latin and read this shitty 500 page 200 year old book on Japanese fauna that I have lying around. Oh, and that one British one that records the history of a specific Irish town too.

[Anonymous No.22977298]

>>22977289
>>yet I doubt it is excellent, or even good
Exactly right. You keep saying it's good but can't explain why. It just seems like a reactionary statement but I don't know why you'd do that. You don't owe me anything though. I've just always wanted to learn French and I need a compelling reason. Thanks for talking to me though.

[Anonymous No.22977301]

>>22977296
>500 page 200 year old book on Japanese fauna that I have lying around. Oh, and that one British one that records the history of a specific Irish town too.


Badass

[Anonymous No.22977313]

>>22977301
I remember feeling so pissed when going through that English book. I had to read a 50 page long preface before starting on the actual thing, only to find out that despite "translation to English" being part of the fucking name of the book, it just dumps all the records of the settlement at you in Latin without any change. Never felt so filtered in my life.

[Anonymous No.22977350]

Ἀλέξανδρος ἑρωτηθεὶς πόθεν ἐκτήσατο
ταυσαύτην δυναστείαν ἔφη, “Μηδὲν εἰς
αὔριον ἀναβαλλόμενος.”

Alexander interrogātus unde potīrētur
tālī imperiō dīxit, “nullum in
crāstinum dēiciendum.”

[Anonymous No.22977362]

>>22977313
Lmao

[Anonymous No.22977679]

Why does every hate the Historia Augusta?

[Anonymous No.22977706]

>>22977679
Everyone hates everything broheim

[Anonymous No.22977712]

>>22977679
Not hate, but definitely not like. It's full of lies to the point where it's hard to believe anything in it. Prose is as purple as Latin gets.

[Anonymous No.22977772]

>>22973489
Neither. Both of these opinions were formulated by hapless puthujjanā who thought it expedient to spend their lives arguing a theoretical about something they've never experienced (rather than getting the right view and then practicing to find out what it means). Right View (i.e. understanding the Buddha's teaching, becoming an ariyapuggala, becoming a sotāpanna etc.) absolutely and uncompromisingly precedes any other aspect of the path. Getting the right view is even called "obtaining the path". The Buddha even gave an extremely specific, painstakingly exact sutta about why this discussion is absolutely retarded (Mahācattārīsakasutta, MN 117, https://suttacentral.net/mn117/en/bodhi?lang=en&reference=none&highlight=false).).

[Anonymous No.22977781]

>>22974924
Yeah, this'd be freaky.

>uh... so you're saying you can write but not speak? how does that come about
>yeah you just wait for the coming 2000 years buddy lmao

[Anonymous No.22977977]

I'm going to start with the Greeks a second time after doing it 10 years ago
The first time I read Homer I read Fagles translation, I'm going to give Lattimore's translation a try now
I'm pretty excited bros

[Anonymous No.22977989]

Languages can be broken down into 4 parts, reading, writing, speaking, and listening. And these must all be learned somewhat seperately. You can learn to speak to a language without knowing what its words look like at all, and vice versa you can learn to read a language without knowing what it sounds like.

It can be further broken down into low level and high level.
Low level examples being things like daily conversation, asking for directions, ordering a meal, etc.
High level examples being things like poetry, philosophy, scientific texts, law texts.

Usually when people learn modern languages they become very adept at the low level stuff, and they become adept in all four regions of it, usually being weaker on the writing side or the reading side depending on which they do less of.
And so when someone asks them if they speak x modern language, they're very easy to pull out common daily phrases like "yes I speak this language, I spent a year in x country, their food is very nice"

But when someone asks if you speak x classical language... you realize that while you are able to read the works of Ovid, Cicero, and Virgil, you are completely inexperienced in forming basic conversational phrases like "today is a nice day". Infact it's very likely that you aren't practiced in speaking the language at all, and very little experience in writing it because the language is dead and 99% of the experience of learning it is in reading high level texts.
And then of course the person laughs at you and thinks you're lying, that if you cannot form even a basic sentence, there is no chance you are able to read high level poetry in that language, leaving you feeling foolish.

[Anonymous No.22978082]

>>22957098
>DEAD LETTER THE THREAD
absolutely periphery

[Anonymous No.22978097]

>>22975550
>Language guy is also "shizoaffective"
Hardly surprising, the main contributors to these threads are clearly very narrow-minded and self-absorbed, very small minded people, in the sense their mental faculties tend towards towards the inexhaustibly microscopic, where everything is divided and debatable, on the level of an "Opinion" which is by its very nature only falsifiable.

[Anonymous No.22978111]

>>22977989
διὰ τοῦτο μάλ' συμφέρει Ῥωμαϊστὶ καὶ Ἑλληνιστὶ ἀλλήλοις διαλέγεσθαι καὶ τὴν ἐνεργὴν γλῶσσαν τοῖς μεθερμενεύσεσιν ἀσκεῖν, μὴ ὑποπτεύσωσιν οἱ πολλοὶ ἡμᾶς μὴ κεκασμένους ὄντας ταῖς πάλαι γλώσσαις

[Anonymous No.22978115]

>>22977989
Modern Linguistics - the science of Breaking things down!
How chaotic and dissolute

[Anonymous No.22978147]

>>22977977
read this instead

[Anonymous No.22978148]

>>22976236
The sad thing about these threads and the thing which always leaves a bad taste in my mouth, is the fact that people have "identities" tied up in "language"

Essentially they have "egos" tied up in these things, which is why we see the endless debate uninterruptedly renewed,
You may think this "new science" of linguistics has cleansed you of ego, that you are now the "impersonal" critic of language, but all you are doing is binding your ego to a new trend which is "destructive" a "counter-language" which claims to by reducing all language to atomic parts purify itself of any sense of "bias" but really you are only increasingly divided and prone to debate. That impersonality, that allure of objectivity is only a rouse, you all still forward your little agendas, and have simply grafted yourself onto something different but the same.

[Anonymous No.22978154]

>>22976236
that incapacity to be positive, to be constructive, but rather to always compare and contrast, to always divide and set things against, only speaks to a true insufficiency, a defect.

So that supposedly impersonal objective character which is claims to "synthesize" language through a sort of atomism is nothing of the sort, it is merely an extension of a rather meaningless "intellectual pride" in the final analysis.

[Anonymous No.22978162]

>>22978148
>The sad thing about these threads and the thing which always leaves a bad taste in my mouth, is the fact that people have "identities" tied up in "language"
people with alternative lifestyles... reading themselves into a vacuity in the historical timeline, it is all self-insertion gone too far.

All historyfags and languagefags are truly an inferior race of human kind caught up in their own pathos.

[Anonymous No.22978171]

>>22978147
Fuck these academic books language is one of those "self-improvement" things which remains conceptual and egoic, unless the language is integrated usefully into a lived experience then it is worthless.
Ancient language fags here should get a bullet to the head. Its about meaning and not language, and not one of these autists here can claim to explain by etymology otherwise, the meaning is not reducible to the name or form of the language in question.

[Anonymous No.22978188]

>>22978171
all the ancient talk about a higher sort of thought, which gives access to the intelligible realm of ideas directly, grasping constantly after the letter missing the spirit entirely, or even confusing the latter for the former is all I see resulting from these linguistic autistic copes.

the academic european or american fags in here merely studying to earn a livelihood are insufferable fucks.

[Anonymous No.22978197]

>>22978188
>all the ancient talk about a higher sort of thought, which gives access to the intelligible realm of ideas directly,
with certitude I say it is only in this, in life that you will be close to the ancients,

I dont give a fuck if one of you anglo, euro, etc. whatever bastards you are put on a toga then study the reconstructed pronunciation of ancient greek for 10000 hours then read the iliad outloud whilst beating drums and dancing, not a single one of you fucks will be communing with the being of the ancients

In the same way that if one of you language linguistic cunts, were to chop your cocks off it wouldnt make you a fucking Gali

All of you bastards who say that these inauthentic reproductions and artificial works are the otherwise are guilty of blaspheming the holy spirit, and will go down to burn!

[Anonymous No.22978212]

The last two threads have really shown an uncannily sustained ability not to fall for bait. It's funny seeing the human detritus scratch at the windows.

Summoning Sinoanon: How important is it to actually know how to pronounce Mandarin for the purpose of using pinyin as it relates to characters? Can one get by on just treating things like tones as one would accents in Ancient Greek (i.e. seeing and differentiating them on the page, but pronouncing them is an occult craft one does not partake of)?
Also, would you have any specific recommendation for learning how to write characters, stroke order etc.? I've downloaded one of the books Van Norden recommends (Reading and Writing Chinese; I couldn't find Far East 3000) but I'm wondering whether there's something more efficient.
Still trying to figure out whether to actually take the dive into this, but some of these preliminary difficulties have hindered me from actually starting. Don't want to accidentally pick up bad habits for writing characters and the general principles for stroke order look a bit arcane to me.

[Anonymous No.22978237]

>>22978212
You should put in the effort to learn proper Mandarin, Cantonese, or whatever pronunciation for the purpose of being able to communicate with other sinologues, and in case you ever want to learn the modern language. You can get it by drilling for two weeks. To this end I recommend Taiwanese 注音符號/ㄅㄆㄇㄈ over Pinyin, since it discourages anglo Pinyin spelling pronunciation, fits Mando phonetics perfectly, and gives you access to the excellent phonetically annotated 三民 editions.
Always follow stroke order, if only broadly. Up-to-down, left-to-right. It's super important for being able to read even neat handwriting, or even new typefaces. I say "broadly" because I mix Chinese and Japanese stroke orders all the time now, including when I spell my own name, and this doesn't get in the way of much.
Characters take a very large amount of grinding, but you must simply have faith that they will click someday. I can't tell you how best works for adults, since I got them as a kid, but I can say what worked for foreign colleagues in China. You must drill your first few hundred obsessively, writing them fifty times each. Then, consume very large amounts of phonetically annotated text. 三字經 and 千字文 (three character classic and thousand character classic) might serve this purpose well. Also learn poems by heart: how to recite them and how to write them both.

[Anonymous No.22978243]

>>22978237
Let me emphasize that broadly does NOT mean "make up your own." Be super strict with stroke order early on or you'll end up with handwriting that looks like picrel. If it slips a little later it should be alright, but be strict early on. Worse, I knew a foreigner in China who wrote characters from bottom to top, rendering his handwriting slow and illegible. He didn't last.

[Anonymous No.22978258]

>>22978212
One more thing about tones: you must nail them. Let it serve as a memory aid. You will not be able to store so many homophones in your head otherwise. Moreover, it's just part of the language.

[Anonymous No.22978336]

>>22978243
This looks painful.

[Anonymous No.22978447]

>>22977989
>someone asks if you speak x classical language
>no, I read it
don't be a sperg

[Anonymous No.22978469]

>>22978447
He's right though. I picked up Latin as an adult after years of break and my parents always ask me to say things and it's a struggle. I have to explain that reading comes easy but word formation on the go is tough.

[Anonymous No.22978484]

>>22978447
In normal conversation with normal people, speak means to know the language and in their mind there is no distinction between speaking, listening, reading, or writing.
If you want to convince someone that you can read Tacitus, you must be able to say that "today is a nice day and you have pretty hair" on the spot

[Anonymous No.22978567]

>>22977989
ἣδε ἡμερα καλή

[Anonymous No.22978577]

>εἰ οἴει δεῖν κίνδυνον ὑπολογίζεσθαι τοῦ ζῆν ἢ τεθνάναι ἄνδρα ὅτου τι καὶ σμικρὸν ὄφελός ἐστιν,
>if you think a man in whom there is even a little merit ought to consider danger of life or death,
Why is the translation on Perseus translating οφελος like this? Couldn't it be something like "of who it benefits little" (I don't know exactly how to translate the genitive so it sounds good in English, but the sense I'm trying to get is that he possesses little benefit from fretting about life or death)? I don't see the "merit" anywhere in LSJ unless I'm missing something

[Anonymous No.22978704]

>>22978577
mmh without context I think grammatically speaking the ὅτου as you are saying could refer to the infinitive phrase introduced by οἴει and not to the man albeit perhaps the choice is taking into account the fact that ἄνδρα despite being the subject was placed at the end and right before ὅτου

[Anonymous No.22978939]

>>22978237
Thanks for the reply, anon.

>You can get it by drilling for two weeks
Frankly, tones seem incredibly "abstract" to me, as someone who has never had anything to do with them. On the other hand, it doesn't seem that difficult to be *able* to produce them, even if actually using them in conversation sounds like thaumaturgy to me.

>To this end I recommend Taiwanese 注音符號/ㄅㄆㄇㄈ over Pinyin, since it discourages anglo Pinyin spelling pronunciation, fits Mando phonetics perfectly
The actual letters used in Pinyin are indeed terribly confusing to me. Are there any English language dictionary/stroke order resources that use bopomofo? I guess that ROC government website will probably do.

>>22978243
Yeah, that's pretty grim lmao

[Anonymous No.22978949]

>>22978939
>The actual letters used in Pinyin are indeed terribly confusing to me. Are there any English language dictionary/stroke order resources that use bopomofo? I guess that ROC government website will probably do.
Pleco is the very best Chinese dictionary app there is. I have it set to bopomofo.

[Anonymous No.22978974]

>>22977989
>>22978447
>>22978469
>>22978484
>>22977989

If you have to explain to someone the use of learning ancient languages (which used to be self evident to the middle and upper classes), then they wont even understand your explanation. We have been in Idiocracy territory for 50 years now.

It's a hopeless endeavor with even my university educated friends, they just dont get it. I simply pretend my hobbies are watching bullshit on Netflix and buying junk on Amazon and we get along fabulously. I've learned to completely avoid the tiresome conversations where they hostilely demand justification for learning "dead languages"; none of them can even explain what that means or why it's advantageous for a language to be dead.

tldr; you dont have to justify shit to nobody

[Anonymous No.22979003]

Another Chinese question: Are there characters that only occur in Classical Chinese texts and nowhere else? If so, how would you pronounce them?

[Anonymous No.22979030]

>>22978237
Can you recommend some guide of a practice routine, or maybe a beginner's Chinese book that has good routines to internalize?

[Anonymous No.22979136]

>>22979003
There are no characters from Classical Chinese that *can't* be borrowed into Modern Chinese. For example, 曰/yue1/ㄩㄝ is a very common CC verb for "to say" that would be absurd to use in Mandarin, but everyone would know what 子曰 meant.
There are literary readings of certain characters that are mostly used only in declamation of CC. One such example is 白 as bo2/ㄅㄛˊ rather than bai3/ㄅㄞˇ; another is lu4/ㄌㄩˋ 六 liu4/ㄌㄧㄡˋ. These are rapidly declining in the mainland, as the CCP policy is actually to discourage them: nobody calls the famous poet "Li Bo" anymore.

>>22979030
I made a whole infographic. Look in the FAQ.

[Anonymous No.22979139]

>>22978974
>you dont have to justify shit to nobody
Yeah, but if I don't explain properly they won't think I'm a badass intellectual. That's the real problem here.

[Anonymous No.22979173]

>>22978974
>We have been in Idiocracy territory for 50 years now.
Good estimate, I'd push the start at the 60s.

[Anonymous No.22979178]

It's at least 500 years.

[Anonymous No.22979199]

>>22979136
Does the infographic apply if I am just interested learning Chinese, not classical Chinese?

[Anonymous No.22979224]

>>22977989
>no don't focus on the areas that are actually relevant to your interests, you have to cater to impressing this person I just made up!!

[Anonymous No.22979363]

>>22979199
My recommendations for that are Chao Der-Lin's textbook, the Anki deck Spoonfed Chinese, and the old podcast Pop-up Chinese (says it's paid but the paywall doesn't work: a free acct accesses all features.)

[Anonymous No.22979385]

>>22979224
Duo lupi pugnant in te.
Primus sexcentas horas exercet Latine loqui, ne irrideretur ab iis, quibus dixisset eum scire linguam: >>22977989
Alter tamen numquam loquitur de lingua Latina: >>22978974

(Scilicet ambi cinaedi sunt lupi.)

[Anonymous No.22979451]

NOVVM
>>22979449
>>22979449
>>22979449

[Anonymous No.22980181]

>>22963562
To my English ears, there is literally no distinction. I doubt many people today will be able to discern the minor difference, given the fact that the retracted s is not present in many major modern languages.
>also, it’s gay

[Anonymous No.22980436]

>>22978111
im a beginner so im going to try parse your post without looking anything up. I appreciate any corrections or help.

for? this brings many with? Roman(is this supposed to be a language? ie Latin? not sure what ist suffix means) and Greek? to converse with each other and the (work in?, working?) language with the (don't know these two words). the many? to not suspect us? being not of (don't know this word) to the many languages.

As you can see i don't get it, despite (likely incorrectly) recognizing many of the words. How do i get better at parsing bros.

[Anonymous No.22980452]

>>22978567
>>22977989
αυριον εστιν καλη ημερα?